If you believe something false like your religion is true and I see it is false we have a problem, only if you believe I am wrong, and you are right? If you believe I must not exist as proof of your wrongness? Maybe because I threaten you and your scamming hierarchical lie. i might cause doubt among your brainwashed so called flock of strange believing birds. I might threaten your organization with facts. Facts that you cannot deny or prove to be not true? Or because I might ask you to see the whole scam of selling truth from a book, and programming decent human beings children, to believe in the whole scam of government approved schools.
As for the pain I can show you how you cause women pain in gender inequality in society but you claim anti abortion laws are fair? So not you but the most insane among you cause more pain in the world because they are against equality, under the laws of the lands. These insane morons rule over women in the homes with their insane subservient spouses, and in every nations corrupt governments.
These insane laws going back to the fable about Adam and Eve are advocated by the most religiously insane among you passing the laws of the land, that harm females in every society on earth who believe in the horrible doctrines behind all the lies of insane anti equality partisan secular religious governing. These corrupt nationalistic tragedies, both national and religious hierarchies. They are perverse dishonest and divisive institutions all over our burning dying home planet thinking their psychological knowledge is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The holier than thou terrorists in governments are generally believing, only they are really right about their divisive rotten foundations in ancient books? Meanwhile living thoughtless and horribly twisted lives, hurting ;living human beings.
Living lawlessly, immorally on the top of their businesses, religious and national pyramids. Living in deep ignorance and real hypocritical immoral actions while spouting lunacy from ancient books, that produce terrorists, orthodox loonies, and perfect kept hypocrites. All from their lie filled ancient books. A dying planet where our schools destroy our childrenâs minds before they learn to think for themselves as equals all over the world. So ponder on these things for yourselves and ask yourselves Why canât I think like an equal on this dying planet and world? Why must I think like I was taught and believe in the lies in the ancient books that I have been told to believe in and accept in blind hope, irrational hype, and absurd faith in all their propaganda and lies. Why do I keep any of this mess going, or fit in anywhere?
I think it is the same as what @Dano is pointing out: the brain has allowed itself to be programmed in fantastic ways for a million years! Feeling, sensing passionately the wrongness of all of it in oneself, is probably the only way out of the enslavement.
Yes it is equally important to see manmade darkness within the same way it has to be individual inquiry as the only way to avoid the same right based darkness as a disease sweeping all over the world. We can see too, as far as not belonging to institutions that spread their own propaganda, and darkness as supposed light many far right extremist leaders are saying the same things dividing people. Much like the two insane governors of Texas and Florida fighting liberalism and calling more sanely tolerant human beings all over the world who disagree with their tiny minds the woke!!
Claiming it is the Left who must be destroyed by law and anyone disagreeing with them or making them uncomfortable ? Especially seeing when they too are generally intolerant power crazy, true believers, and generally power mad revivalists, and insane themselves. All much like Trump, and Benjamin Netanyahu, and Vladimir Putin, and Vicktor Orban, and others. The worst of humanity on top who are generally divisive and insane as tyrannical serial killing despots. Most all intent on destroying our planet for more national land and wealth, and more personal, and national power. a child could see the truth of this.Ponder on these things for yourselvesâŚ
To believe is to accept without further ado. Whether out of fear, dependence, necessity, or laziness. Like the acceptance of death that some forum members are so fond of, believing that if one is able to accept death one will be free, but that at the moment of truth (i.e. at the moment of death and dying) it is of no use at all. As happened to a friend of mine, a Buddhist nun, who after fifteen years meditating on impermanence, believing that she had seen and accepted what death was, the day she went to the doctor and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, as she herself literally said âI shit my pantsâ.
By the way, belief is not only limited to religion, but to any psychological dependence one may have, which means that freedom is not belief/acceptance, but freedom from any psychological dependence (including dependence on the self) one may have. And some of those dependencies are very, very, very subtle, requiring energy that is absolutely wasted in the acceptance that is belief in whatever it is.
Do you see now that you are nothing but a believer, @Dano ?
Does someone who claims to know what it means to believe and who does not consider himself a believer, speak of (extreme-)right, (extreme-)left as if they existed in themselves, criticising one, defending the other?
I really do not mind what you think about others. What is the self if not a believer? What are you if you only believe you are not a believer? What is the name of someone who no longer believes they are a self or how the psyche is structured hierarchically as a believer and produced by schools in modern society? Are we grown from the soil or produced by society with facts mixed up with many psychological conclusions. It is meaningless to call anyone a believer when we only support the wrong belief that there is something wrong with a believer, or non believer or not us as a rotten judge of strangers? Maybe because we are morons whenever we judge anyone as being a psychological lessor or a psychological superior, when both accusations are meaningless to any inquirers because there is no valid upper movement of spirituality to any one who instead of teaching believers and non believers to doubt and inquire, they may believe they are psychologically free as a self gain? Not seeing not being anything is just as a starting place for inquiry in life? Whatever you I or others believe, we are not better, more fortunate, more chosen than anyone else that believes something different? A side step is not our heads in the clouds. It is still only a position to inquire, not become a psychological superior, a superior psyche .to the rest of mankind. âŚ
It would be interesting to know why your thinking comes to the conclusion that when someone says âyou are a believerâ it implies that he is judging you, concluding that he is somehow saying that you are psychologically inferior and he is superior or psychologically free.
Do you have the same feeling/reaction when Krishnamurti (or any other authority) calls you a believer, or do you think he is talking about others and not about you? Or maybe it is that as a good believer, you accept what the authority says about you without jumping to conclusions, reflecting on it, but you do not do the same when your neighbor talks about you in the same way, jumping quickly to conclusions and reacting to his words by saying âwho do you think you are to say that I am this or thatâ?
Are you justifying ignorance or your own refusal to see you are not elevated to any disrespectful or superior state? As if you have Gotten the right to determine how Krishnamurti would speak to you or myself? How would you know how or what a living human being would respond to you accusing them of something, or should respond to you and your accusations? Maybe you should give us all a class on right and wrong responses from our past, so we can respond to you in a delusional way, like you maybe think, believe K would have responded to your silly assertions as if he will be made into a conclusive predictable mechanical clone in the present by you in order to sustain your false authority in this discussion? K. was an inquirer not an authority on right responses and miss manners classes for people to address self important people, or anyone in the correct k. way? There is no correct K. way my silly friend . If you think there is ask my why there is not? Ponder on that my friend .
There is no such thing as a non believer.That is a fiction. No one could live a life on earth not believing anything they had not seen, smelled, touched, felt or personally done, or experienced for themselves or remembered as an experience. The authoritarian judge of fellow human beings in conceptual internet groups as being believers or non believers, is merely anti inquiry positing themselves as a psychological authority. We all believe in things we do not personally know to be true, that are reasonable or not reasonable. See too no matter where we live on earth we know our way home we do not have to guess at each corner or carry a compass unless we lose our sense of direction. . Psychologically judging human beings is an invented process of pride, and discrimination, all over our planet that divides the human race conceptually but not factually. We are so similar it is more of a conundrum, a mystery that we do not live like that in our daily lives and give so much credence to our words and ideas that divide us factually. Ponder on that
Ah, I see, thank you! ⌠then I donât think there can be a relationship with something that the believer has not come in contact with but simply imagined thinking that his imagination is actually what he believes in. What do you think?
Anyone can self project an imaginary relationship and tell people they believe theirs is real without ever having one insight into the ability and deceit of the self to fool itself. You better have a relationship with the projector, the brain first, or you will never know what the self really is.
This says it all, a âprojected imaginary relationshipâ is not a relationship at all but a mere fantasy, regardless of whether the one projecting is aware of the deception or not. Iâm surprised you havenât noticed this.
Is this an advice? If so, how would you pair it with the following?
For the inquiry I would say personal opinions are the thoughts related to anyoneâs personal beliefs, and ideas and motives for being here which are all only in a persons psyche and that person being self aware may or may not be vulnerable enough to go there? So I see without cooperation we have no relationship.We are just bickering . That is the standard of society to divide on the side of debaters.No win Win for everyone cooperating in inquiry no cooperative movement.
Yes. And that is precisely what happens to us all the time. Not only when we stick to our beliefs by talking to others about whatever we believe (whether religiously or worldly heard from others or the media) as if we have actually been in touch with it, when in fact we have never been, but also when once we have come in touch with it we refuse to question it or have it questioned by others as Krishnamurti said, during âa walk together observing lifeâ clinging to "that is a fact, what is the need to question it? ".
May I ask you how you distinguish between a âpersonal opinionâ and âpersonal experienceâ about anything that has been discussed/shared here in the forum by any of its members?
There is no such thing as a âreal, true and honest acceptance of death,â which implies an actor and thus the usual duality between the possessor and the possessed. So, either I see what death is, or I donât see it. And in that seeing, I see that death is me, and I am death, without any division and therefore without any need to accept anything.
âTotal absence of fearâ through the acceptance of death is nothing more than an illusion that at the moment of death and dying turns out to be just that, an illusion in which one realizes that something one thought one had defeated is still there.