Is there a real normal in any invented organized society?

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If Thought produces the norm in duality, in division what we believe to be standard and normal is not producing in real time a real standard, or a psychological normal at all in any society? . What thought produces in an invented society as an ideal national and family norm. Then the self is an invented psychological fiction called ancient reality. That living in a moral ethical principled reinvented modified ancient reality, is the reality psychiatrists, politicians, scientists and leaders, and the wealthy pretend to have perfected or are perfecting in modern times to meet a present no one in the past could ever comprehend as their rotten invention, or hierarchically; organized, pyramid scam. So the affluent in society are ladder climbers. Aside from pretension what they have is not a norm, or correct standard, or higher class of human beings, to be emulated, imitated as real influences in society, they are not cultured or anything near being able to go about exhibiting higher ethics, and morals, and so called right norms to be emulated throughout society by those at the lower levels of their social and governmental pyramid scams at all. A normal self, family and nation, is not a reality it is an idealistic invention of ancient morons who if they were alive today would all be in jail or mental hospitals because they were the original terrorists in every major traditional religion on earth.

Their religions are introducing most of the political terrorists seeking power to convert the masses. Rabid extremists you see on earth in our governments, and other nations governments, and those blowing up things all over our beautiful earth right now… Our planet is on fire because our religions teach the same thing our insane leaders, bigots similar to all those leaders in the past in our divisive traditional religions factually believe in ancient original terrorists like Abraham, Noah, Moses, who all spread the lies about Adam and Eve and the prophets, and cultist seers, who were seeing their own insanity, schizophrenia, violence, malice, greed, power mad visions not any particular invented gods visions, demands, rules, or desires for them to go around getting lost in deserts, inventing commandments, and controlling their creations lives forevermore in any pyramid scam or similar hierarchy or monarchy, empire, or religious republic . . .

We cannot ever be normal without being reasonable, and seeking what we believe is attainable by anyone at the bottom, or top of any society? Imitating, emulating anyone’s asserted true values, in that society is seeking the unattainable solidifying the disguise, of the naked king, or uppity fake pretending snobby rich old, or newly wealthy, allegedly higher, or royal class families. The illusion is perpetrated by most everyone in the illusion trying to be perfect, or normal not inquire into self projection from memorial duality. Creativity and normalcy, perfection are projected ideals of normalcy, so called sanity, traditional wisdom, skillful invention, and genetic talent that also includes the physical appearance, calculative skills, and memory. All biological attributes that help one rise in society are not real positive virtues that include creativity. Joy and the freedom to inquire, criticize, and doubt and question. Fitting in and climbing ladders with innate talents, is more like polar opposites to psychological freedom that helps us see what we are climbing up in? All the pyramid scams, hierarchies are invented imitated causes of insanity in mankind. They were invented by the most insane in ancient times. Those ancient superstitious beasts, organizing mankind in pyramid scams were never the producers of human sanity, wisdom,a living intelligence, awareness or originality. One has nothing to do with the other. They are both life in two different realities. One was invented. Can you guess which one most of us are living in?

What is our norm is for us to find out? Is it from the past, or is it new and original? Ponder on this for yourselves. How could any pyramid scam on earth, ever allow money or truth to flow down to those on the bottom? When they are all struggling for their whole lives for pennies, to keep those at the top extremely wealthy, healthy and powerful? Their taxes, tithes go to keep the white collared costumed leaders well kept,living in splendor, while the poor starve, struggle or die in wars? How can these terrible habits of organizing people in pyramid scams, ever permanently survive as a national, or traditional religious pyramid scam? The programming and conditioning of those in their cults to fit in to what they say is a standard, or a double standard for the poor and those at the top or a different norm for our leaders is egregious and vile and a manmade evil. See to even in the laws we are told we must all obey the leaders generally get a pass or use a different set of words, for taking a bribe themselves? Most obviously think the laws were not invented for them because they believe themselves to be, above all the laws of the land. They are illusory supremacists, not principled moral ethical ideologists. Supreme authorities are not subjected to the same laws as everyone else in their corrupt nations as them. Pay for play, pray for justice and peace? Those two insane ways to organize are the most egregious horrible bestial ways to organize people in the entire world in another pyramid scam. What do you think about that?

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There’s a lot to unpack here. The inquiry must begin by asking whether these societal structures, hierarchies, and norms arise naturally or are sustained by the movement of thought. Thought by its nature, fragments and seeks security in patterns, ideals, and authority. These structures may appear to bring order, but do they not perpetuate division, conflict, and suffering?

The “pyramid scams” described are not just external systems but extensions of the psychological hierarchies within us. The division between “higher” and “lower,” between “normal” and “abnormal,” is mirrored in our own thinking patterns. Unless this inner structure of division is understood in ourselves, can external change ever have meaning?

Instead of asking how these (external) systems can change, can we inquire into whether the very process of seeking ideals, authority, or societal norms is itself the root of disorder?

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I understand the wisdom in your question. Our thought cannot be reasonably abandoned. All thought should not ever be abandoned because no one can live without technical thought without becoming a vegetable in life. For thirty or forty years I have been saying there are two kinds of thought. One works and has efficacy and the other does not. See to ponder this too. Psychological authorities cannot ever work to help anyone on earth think for themselves. See to .even if morons claim superstition works, faith works, hope works and science does not? . It is up to each human being on earth to sift the false from the true, and the true and the false in their own brains, and hearts and minds in awareness. Ponder on these things for yourselves Let the sifting start in inquiry why believe it will not if it has not in ourselves? What else does anyone think will work if they believe Inquiry, is not a sane action for themselves? No one on earth can teach something unnatural to the brain in the form of any superstitious belief about the possible in life for themselves, without themselves having a pre-programmed mind? We are all conditioned and there is no replacement for thought that works only an end to thought that has no real efficacy in life, none at all any more valuable than a placebo.in medicine or a self projection. Let us look at what people might say. You are the sifter why sift? You are on this shore why inquire? .Do you see the trick thought invented to control us and others? How can we start inquiring from where we are not? Not without starting from where we are in duality projecting another shore, or putting our heads in the imaginary clouds mankind’s ancient superstition invented?

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These observations and questions reflect a depth of thought that touches upon something essential and deeply relevant: the responsibility of each individual to inquire deeply into their own life and mind.

Indeed, no external authority or system can provide the clarity we seek. Can we begin by questioning whether the framework of duality (true versus false, useful versus useless) is itself a product of thought? If so, does starting from this division already confine inquiry within the limitations of the mind that created it?

Inquiry, in its most fundamental sense, is perhaps the central essence of what Krishnamurti pointed toward. It is not about adopting conclusions, systems, or even the statements he made, but about awakening the capacity for direct observation and exploration.

Thinking together, as Bohm emphasized, is not about asserting one’s own perspective or adhering to another’s but about moving beyond division to uncover truth in relationship and dialogue. The process is not an outcome but a living, shared action which must be nurtured from inner intention for wholeness and harmony.

Inquiry is not an analysis of what has already been thought but a fresh movement into what is actual. When this inquiry is alive, without effort, attachment or direction, does it not reveal a clarity that transcends the need for dichotomies, comparisons, or conclusions?

Looking and staying with the question.

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If I may ask, what would the naturally occurring social structures, hierarchies and norms look like?

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Perhaps the deeper inquiry is to observe the structures as they are now, to understand their roots, and to see whether they arise from necessity or are merely the product of conditioned thinking. Without such clarity, any concept becomes just another abstraction, reinforcing the very patterns we seek to question.

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I agree. If we knew what the new looks like before we are beyond the addiction of organizing in pyramids and hierarchies it would not be new? Would it to you?

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I think or feel or see that this subject brings us into the field of cooperation and inquiry since critical thinking negates fundamental hierarchies, exploiting nations, and businesses, and all ideological systems, as real pyramid scams. . Any insights anyone? Dare we step beyond systems and patterns? What is the NEW? Is cooperation usury or win win in a discussion, or dialogue?

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Natural some would say is dog eat dog? . Or only the strong win or survive? Like all the magnificent hunters as not evil or hateful Beasts that survive by eating other beasts? . So pyramid scams, tribes, families from Adam and Eve on are all based on the natural animal? Natural behavior where the fittest is an insane egotistical male god giving orders to children not to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge. The woman demeaned immediately as untrustworthy. An insane children story spreading inequality globally like any insane lunatic raising children diseased by those invented stories. Man on top wrongly taught for thousands of years. Children taught women are, not equals in everything except the physical. Taught side by side with the boys that real learning questioning.making mistakes and inquiring into life for themselves as real equals is not just memorization of societal ancient rules but a going intelligently beyond them all, seeing they all feed and fuel fear, not real freedom in the hearts and minds of mankind. . .

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When is cooperation usury?

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Both cooperation within groups and competition between groups can be seen as practices that increase fitness - thus both beneficial, of interest (usury?) from a survival perspective.

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Yes Mcdougdoug. I do not feel there is anything dark in competition except when nation or mega money becomes all important not the sport and that greed alters, the whole structure of sports, and turns it into entertainment and national competitions for alleged supremacy or piles of money. Cooperation between human beings can take place anywhere and in anything including competition. Including survival, What I was trying to get at is that cooperation is from human inner warmth, and winning at all costs is from greed, or inner want. A mechanical process of thought always wondering what is in this for me, how can I come out ahead cooperating, ambition, is craving, and desire. Those things are not the living movement of friendly cooperation? Do you see that or understand that too?

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The important distinction is the experience of “warmth” vs the experience of “greed”.
As humans can cooperate from both warmth or greed - maybe the word “cooperation” is not ideal.
The French like the word “fraternity” or “brotherhood” - which might necessarily imply some “outgroup” - unless we mean the brotherhood of all sentient beings?

Compassion seems like a good word. ie. the acknowledgement of sorrow in all selves.

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Definitely. Also to subjugate/annihilate another country/tribe/community. But let me ask, can there be a cooperation that has no goal/objective? What do you think?

Is the acknowledgement that others suffer just as I suffer, enough for compassion (for myself and the rest) to arise, or does it need something more? In a word, this acknowledgement is based on…?

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If my problems seem vastly more important to me than yours, this will be a barrier.

There must be some miracle that frees me from the dictat of my selfish experience of reality.

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“Why do we have problems at all?”

J. Krishnamurti, Public Talk 1 Bombay (Mumbai), India - 22 January 1983.

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In a word, to look at it – not to understand it, since such understanding could be merely intellectual/logical, and therefore pervaded by certain conscious or unconscious conditioning – and see if our social structures arise from a conditioned necessity, right?

When you talk about “clarity”, what clarity are you referring to?

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The time needed in the practical realm to solve problems that arise was mistakenly carried over into the psyche where there is only ever ‘now’. Time is needed to solve an equation but time cannot solve the problem of fear, loneliness, dread, worry etc. “Thought is fear”. The patterns of suffering in the brain created by thought’s images cannot be ‘thought away’. So why does the brain keep them? Why doesn’t the brain reject them as the poison that they are? “Why do we have problems at all?”

Why do we ‘care what happens’?

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Yes I feel cooperation is a good word too. I think it becomes more clear when we say what cooperation is not? Suffering is not mine in the real sense of that word. I think suffering is the legacy of all of mankind caused by programming conditioning propaganda and national and religious and economical division that causes that general suffering that is universal, and not just personal, because there is personal suffering and it is not imaginary. We all suffer at times in our lives but that suffering is not the universal suffering of all of conditioned mankind. So yes the definition or standards set by anyone to be forced on everyone is not cooperation. my taxes go for war but I have not psychologically agreed with aggressive warfare started on lies. So am I cooperating when I disagree with my nation or any insane leader or president who has to lie, and spread hatred of others, to unite people, and convince them their goals are nationally righteous.

Especially when bombing innocent people to expand their nations? Is war a cooperative effort at all or an illusory belief in national progress, national continuance of supreme so called global status, and security when our leaders marching us to world war III , and generally are all insane criminals, as divisive extreme nationalists? Despots, bigots, hypocrites, criminals and tyrants like Viktor Orban, like Vladimir Putin, And like Benjamin Netanyahu, and Donald j., trump ? Are they cooperating together marching us all towards planetary destruction and world war III?

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Isn’t the ‘miracle’ of which you talk about, precisely the realisation of what you say here, in myself, leaving others alone?

Now, am I able to look at it and once seen, abandon the identity that “my problems/suffering” have given me over the years, or on the contrary, once seen, do I feel that “abandoning” what I have been until now means that I must cease to be, so I am so afraid that I will do my best to deny it and continue “rejoicing” in “my problems/suffering”, thus continue feeding this identity that I have been coining over the years… simply because I am terribly afraid of being not-a-thing?