A thread for the sharing and discussion of different ways of having a dialogue here in this forum.
Experiments in dialogue sound new to me.
Two I can think of: wanting to learn and wanting to teach.
Can you share some ways we might have a dialogue in here, I dont quite follow, but this seems interesting and intriguing and worthwhile to explore different ways of dialoguing.
I am also very interested in hearing how things are going in any online zoom dialogue groups, and how they can be done differently.
I have participated in several Krishnamurti zoom dialogue groups and most of them seem the same, kind of intellectual, abstract, all over the place, people not listening very well, interrupting each other, talking over others, talking for a long time, very little looking, closed minded, etc.
I would like to think there is some different way of approaching these dialogues, whether in person, online forum or zoom dialogues, but so far, for the most part, they all seem the same, not reaching the potential of what they can be.
I’ve only participated in a few dialogue sessions thanks to Kinfonet - apart from the usual confusion and philosophy - the most specialness I noticed is when we are forced to shut up and face our own mental agitation. Usually this occurs because the group facilitator (the specialist who knows) or another long time K dialoguer, brings this about by a bit of scolding or better still by a clever question.
From what one understands, @Patricia and her partner held (facilitated) a dialogue group for years, something that had to do with “free association”… you might ask her for what that implies. Personally, one has experimented on here with a few people, mainly because one was interested to see whether or not one could do it, and yes, one discovered that one could do it, but to facilitate such a group involves a lot of work and so one understood why K said he was tired after doing any talk and answering questions… facilitating a dialogue is tiring, etc. So it is important for the people participating in it to be very respectful, especially to the one facilitating, because it is tiring, and this is offered “free of charge”, eh?
it is summer here, and there is a heat wave across Canada (climate change) - breaking records across the country - not so bad here on the island, but the humidity is >50% so it feels hotter - making everyone sluggish. Trust everyone is keeping hydrated. “I” really like my sodastream, love the bubbles. Not that interested in posting while there is this heat wave going on.
So, this summer, one is slowly converting the epubs one “discovered” in a file folder into docx’s (calibre is great for doing conversions btw), doing some formatting of them, and incorporating them into one’s “big doc”. Have done about 50 books so far, give or take. …Actually read through about 3 books more than one had before, so now have read about a half dozen books in total since being living the Teachings. Also adding some new files into excerpt files. Krishnamurti’s Notebook [1961-62] had new material. And another book had an extra chapter - all apart from what had been on the CD-Rom.
Hi David, I haven’t tried the Zoom dialogue groups personally as I was very sceptical as to how they would work. I suppose that’s a negative predisposition on my part. I’d be very happy to dialogue with any small group of people who are open minded but would not appreciate being lectured by someone who thinks they have transformed like K. I think there is a real danger that that would happen.
David, wow I totally forgot about this thread, so I’m not sure what I had in mind when I started it, but here’s what my noggin’ is saying now:
Tabula rasa dialogue = “Abandon all known, ye who enter here!”
Anti-authoritarian dialogue = no external or internal authorities invited.
Multimedia dialogue = text, images, video, music.
Tangential dialogue = explore the topic indirectly.
Just say Yes! = agree (sincerely) with something someone’s posted.
Just say No! = disagree (sincerely).
Less is more = limit your responses to say 20 words max.
Debate = semi-formal hashing out of two ‘opposing’ views.
Personal = everyone speaks from personal experience.
Shadow = share your darkest unexpurgated self.
This is just what appeared in my private little brainwashing session. Some of them are more practical than others. Some might work and others flop.
You have suggestions for ‘new’ ways of holding online asynchronous discussions here?
After a few dozen Zoom dialogues under my belt, here are some (soft) personal conclusions:
Smaller is better. The idea (Bohm’s) of having 20+ people in a dialogue is an exciting one, like building a super brain! But the likelihood of coherent dialogue in a big diverse group is low.
Excluding the personal (subtly or overtly) is a mistake. It’s too easy to fall into abstraction that way.
Hand-picked is better than “Everyone’s invited!” This one goes against my joie de inclusion/plurality. But if people don’t get along, even after lots of trying, it ends up clobbering the dialogue flow.
These Krishnamurti Bohm dialogues tend to be earnest, serious, heavy. Not much lightness or fun. Passion is definitely required for a good dialogue, but passion doesn’t mean somber solemnity.
The best thing for me about the dialogues is how much the dialoguers care. The inquiries and explorations really seem to matter, deeply, existentially. I love that!
Thanks for sharing, very interesting. I have not experimented with anyone on here yet. However, I have experimented a little on zoom with other dialogue groups. I agree with everything you said, it is indeed a lot of work, very tiring, and everyone must be respectful, otherwise conflict ensues.
I am open to a small group too of open minded K folk. Maybe you Sean, Rick, Douglas, James, myself, and a few others can set up a small zoom dialogue sometime if someone has a zoom account for groups (I do not, just free zoom I have).
It seems to be a common theme here, that many went to a few dialogues but then chose not to go back.
I love this, thanks. You are very creative. I am okay with bringing in Krishnamurti in the dialogue, what he said, quotes, his take on it. Authority is okay for me, as long as you dont expect me to accept this authority. Even harder is internal authority, to try to stop, so I am okay with all of that, to be honest.
I personally like the less is more approach, say less, not more. So many have a tendency to go on and on and it is very hard to follow, let alone to respond to. Sum up what you want to say in short concise way, is what I like best.
I personally like honesty, sincerity, sharing from heart, deep listening, being respectful to everyone, caring and affection for all. But I have not seen this happen often.
Wow, great sharing Rick, thanks again.
There are pros and cons in both large groups and smaller groups. But overall, I tend to side too with the smaller groups, smaller is better. The bigger the group, the more conflict there tends to be, or chance of.
I have noticed that some groups do not want to bring in the personal. I also see the danger of this, it can become too abstract, dry, intellectual this way, if the personal is avoided.
I too want to include everybody, but unfortunately it often does not work well. Hand picked is indeed better, as long as I am included in the selection, haha.
Yes, a lot of these K Bohm dialogues are very serious, heavy, intellectual, not much lightness, fun, laughter, humor. I sometimes try to bring in humor/laughter, say a joke, but most do not respond, and just stare at me, it doesnt go over too well.
Sounds like a great idea! I’m up for it.
Me too! Under the right circumstances and with collective energy, is it possible to take a step further? I sometimes get the feeling it might be.
A “step” further toward what? In what direction? What do you want? Do you think ‘becoming free of the known’ is somehow a group activity?
Me either, and I’ve been in Krishnamurti forums for 20+ years! It tends to be a crusty bunch. Kindness is quite rare. Makes you wonder, right: Why are Krishnamurti fans so ornery?
I’d be happy to join in on a new dialogue.
So this is a team sport? “Fans”?
I am glad there is an interest in dialogue, that makes three of us so far, Rick, Sean, and Douglas, it is good to see an interest, but the problem is someone has to have a paid subscription to zoom to allow all of us to meet. The free version doesnt allow a group to meet or for very long. Last time I used it with a friend, it kept restricting the meeting to 40 minutes and that was just two of us.
Crusty bunch, haha.
OMG, kindness is overrated, like we really would want kindness to be part of a forum or dialogue group.
It definitely makes you wonder what has happened here, how such a lovely compassionate wise insightful being as Krishnamurti was and somehow this has spawned from reading or watching him.
I ask this all the time myself, “Is this what Krishnamurti wanted?”