Ending the self

I’m sorry if I appear to have been personally critical of you (and Michael) in my comments. I know that you and Michael are serious people, and have spent years exploring this terrain. You have obviously both made authentic discoveries about the mind that others on this forum (including myself) can genuinely benefit from.

The concern I feel is related to the manner in which you seem to articulate your insights in a totalising form, without explicitly acknowledging that you are not in fact speaking from a space of total insight (unless you are?). You must see that this can lead to confusion. For instance, you have spoken of

and have made certain claims such as

without seeming to acknowledge that this is not a total insight of your own, but is merely what you feel Krishnamurti has taught (or are you indeed claiming that it is a total insight of your own? - you see, it is not clear from what you have written which one it is).

I think this stems partly from your characters, your personalities, your background - so you tend to be emphatic, assertive, rather than conciliatory and dialogic (and there is really nothing wrong with this per se).

But when one doesn’t admit that one’s insights are partial (if they are partial), there is a danger of (unwittingly) setting oneself up as an absolute authority (about the mind, about what K said, etc). Do you see that?

For instance, you wrote above that

Now, I am not rejecting this or trying to be patronising, but do you see that this statement is ambiguous? You might merely be saying something the Buddhists often say - namely that

The truth indeed has never been preached by the Buddha, seeing that one has to realise it within oneself

in order to draw attention to the importance of realising the things that K has talked about (rather than just reading his words and remaining comfortable with his words).

But your statement might also be interpreted as meaning that you yourself have “the key”, which others who read Krishnamurti on this forum do not, and that this gives you a special authority over others (with regards to matters of “universal truth”). Do you see what I mean?

The general context of my concern however is not about you (and Michael) personally; rather it is the fact that there are some people on this forum who are openly calling themselves arhats (in Buddhism an arhat or arahant is someone who has had total insight into the nature of existence and achieved nirvana), claiming to have dissolved their egos, and even to have undergone the same mysterious process that K talks about in his Notebook - while it is clearly evident (not least from the occasional narcissism and vulgarity of their comments and the condescension they sometimes have for others) that they are (at least partly?) deluding themselves, and using this authority for their own purposes.

They have had partial insights - probably they have. Many people who explore these matters for years, or who spend their time meditating, journeying into themselves, have all kinds of rich and worthwhile experiences and insights into themselves (I heard many such accounts during my time at Brockwood!); but if these partial insights are then dressed up as total insight, then something false has taken place. - Wouldn’t you say that?

The net result of people acting in this way - as we can observe from the world of religion, from the milieu of modern ‘spirituality’ - is that it often leads to abuse, to authoritarianism, to destructive conflict of one kind or another. And this is why I felt the need to draw attention to it here.

I am emphatically not saying that this is what you and Michael are yourselves doing (at least, I hope not!) - I am merely drawing attention to the danger of totalising statements that are made without some human context for them (presenting them, for instance, as forms of open enquiry - where we are all on an equal footing as learners about ourselves, in the common boat of shared human consciousness, where we all acknowledge the limitations of our knowledge, our partial insights, our comprehension of universal truth, etc).

I hope it needn’t be said that I myself am not speaking from any kind of total insight (!!) - but I have been around the block long enough to see that sometimes people do really do this, and the problems this can create for others (who maybe new, shy or merely gullible) who maybe can’t tell the difference.

As to your question

I think that this is an entirely reasonable (and rich) question to put, but it is one that may require a new thread. If you feel like starting a new thread with that as the question, I will gladly join you there. :pray:

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It is not your concern James. What matters is the inquiry ‘you’ make about whatever anyone says, not who says it or why.

The truth exists regardless of who points it out. Is it possible to listen to what lies behind what is said only?

Total conjecture on your part - again not inquiring into the reality of what is pointed out, but rather focusing on an image of the pointer.

NO - you are wrong James - the key was stated twice before and not addressed at all. Except by Dan.
Did mankind/human beings take a wrong turn?

It is not the concern of this contributor where anyone else is at in his/her inquiry. The sole intention in any open discussion is to listen to what is said and not have an opinion about who said it, or why he/she has said it. Can inquiry be totally impersonal, insightful and only about listening without any opinions?

Problems are only created in discussions when they become personal - no longer about what is said or pointed out, but concentration on an image of who said it - as you are doing here to this contributor.

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By doubling down on the supposed impersonality of what “the contributor” has written, while at the same time refusing to acknowledge the ambiguity of the various statements “the contributor” has already made, the contributor is implicitly identifying themselves with these statements (purporting to be of total insight, “universal truth”). This is problematic.

There is a way of enquiring into a statement purporting to be the absolute truth (e.g. that total perception wipes out the ‘I’) which acknowledges that the person or persons enquiring into it are not themselves being put on a pedestal of spiritual authority.

One of Krishnamurti’s central teachings was not to accept authority in spiritual matters. This is all I’m pointing out.

To speak plainly, I honestly don’t see why you are refusing to acknowledge the most simple, basic fact - which is that you are not speaking from total insight or absolute truth. You demand to be listened to as though you were a pure foghorn of the “impersonal”, and do not seem to see that this colours everything that you (as “the contributor”) say.

It is like the wizard in the story (the wizard of Oz), who seems to be speaking magnificent truths from a source of great power and dignity - when in fact he is all along just an ordinary person like the rest of us (wherever we each of us are at in his/her inquiry).

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James -

There is not one technical fact in what you have written here. It is all psychological images.

Perception seems to be missing in action James!

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Patricia

The power to create illusion is vastly more significant to understand than to understand reality

I don’t if this constitutes a “technical fact” in your language, but it seems to be a perception worth exploring?

It is not a technical fact James.

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Rocky rhetoric - a cartoon series by Michael Berry.

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Facts,

Well, there are facts, and there are opinions about facts… Opinions about facts are nothing more than speculation. When Charley reads such speculation, it is like when the old TV went off air, there was all this snow, it was called snow, like a white-out in a blizzard, where one couldn’t see clearly ahead because one was blinded by the snow… It also made a lot of noise (a really awful grishing sound - i.e. just noise).

Technically speaking, snow is:

  • ‘Snow is the result of the TV attempting to turn stray signals into an image, signals from radio stations, emissions from power lines, transformers or appliances, or even from the electrical noise of the circuits in the TV itself.’

which in some incredible way also explains why the brain speculates, it is an attempt to turn input into an image… so in a way, the occurrence of speculation is image-making, got it…?. neat discovery, what fun this is :grinning:

So, to clarify when one speculates, one is denying the reality of the fact. So, it is impossible to see the truth of any fact. Therefore, insofar as Charley sees it, a lot of snow and noise about nothing at all, a meaningless activity. It just means that the speculation indicates someone can’t or doesn’t want to see the forest for the trees.

Patricia,

When you make statements such as

and

you are saying something that might be. Do you not see that?

It is a question for us: Does pure perception wipe out the ‘I’?

But if I call it a fact, an actuality - as you did - (a fact being something that has happened or is happening) then I am implicitly claiming to have realised this fact (i.e. that pure perception wipes out the ‘I’).

But then why would one be on a forum like this one, built for numbskulls like the rest of us? Such a person would be out in the world teaching on a platform, or living a life of anonymous holiness - not holding court on a petty comments forum and endlessly deflecting the question about whether or not they had actually had a total insight

So, even though you reject this - which is your complete right - I sense there is something false here (call it image-making if you have to).

Just as claiming to have had an insight into one’s past lives and to have ended the cycle of birth and death (as someone other people are doing on this forum) rings a false note.

One must be free to question authority in these matters; otherwise we permit an authoritarian spirit to go unchallenged (with all the consequences that has for others using this forum).

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Get what? You can’t “get” all the teachings until you read them all. Did you “get” what K said in United nation? You have to listen to it to “get” it!

Why do you assume I haven’t “read them all”?

All that you ‘get’ from “reading all the teachings” is knowledge of the teachings.yes?

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The essence of the the teachings can be found in a single sentence. You certainly don’t need to read them all. Given our proclivity for self-aggrandizement, that would more likely than not defeat the purpose and create a false god.

Like this one for example:

The power to create illusion is vastly more significant to understand than to understand reality.

Kinfonet Quote of the Day

If we were fully invested in uncovering our ability to deceive ourselves, we wouldn’t need the teachings or any other guide, it seems to me.

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The teachings are not for everyone. The teachings are there for whoever is interested. Nobody “needs” to read them. K said many times " I don’t know why you come here?".

I see that you like to play hide and seek which I have no interest indulging in such a childish game.

I see that you like making assumptions, and I have no interest in indulging your arrogance.

Big “if” there isn’t it?

Yes, but don’t dismiss it.

I’m not as interested in uncovering my ability to deceive myself as I am invested in keeping it hidden because it’s the only mode of operation I know. Once that ability is gone, I’m naked, exposed, bereft of the means of psychological survival.

When a fact is pointed out by anybody, one’s correct and responsible action in hearing it is to find out the truth of it first-hand. When an insight arises in finding out first-hand, the fact speaks for itself - who pointed it out is wholly irrelevant.

Your statement is a perfect technical example of how a psychological image by one poster of another contributor’s actions on a forum, totally destroys and obliterates any listening to the genuine inquiry of the contributor, as the image-maker is so fully absorbed in their judgement of what the actions of that contributor amount to, all the ‘image-maker’ can hear is the noise of their own voice - then blames the contributor for that endless echoing sound of self.

Such censorship is the dynamic of war.

It is irresponsible to sit by and watch the teaching of K become a veritable grave of psychologically driven word-games, as appears to be happening.

Any question or point raised, and the free unravelling of same, does not constitute authority. The gift is given - one either embraces it or one doesn’t.

The psychological observer is the observed James.

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Ok - one last try.

You say (in relation to the assertion you made previously “That pure perception destroys self is a fact”):

As was already explained previously, it may be a truth, but how do you know this to be a ‘fact’? This so-called fact implies that the ‘I’ has been wiped out. Is this a fact for you?

You haven’t yet replied to this question (of whether or not you are factually free from the ‘I’), no matter how many times it has been asked of you.

Which means that either you have no ‘I’ and are obstinately refusing to acknowledge it (which is possible though unlikely at this point), or you simply want to hold onto to the appearance of having no ‘I’ because it serves your purposes for doing so (which would obviously mean that the thing being called a ‘fact’ is not actually a fact for you).

So, if I may repeat it again, is it a fact for you that you have no more ‘I’?

The cultivation of the appearance of having no ‘I’ is common among gurus and spiritual narcissists (see others on this forum playing this game), and unfortunately also among too many people who claim to be faithful to Krishnamurti’s teachings.

Someone else might do this by constantly referring to themselves in the third person, to suggest the appearance of having no ‘I’. You may be doing this by innocently putting forward deep ‘impersonal universal truths’ (articulated in indecipherably turgid prose), which apparently have nothing to do with you - you are just an anonymous “contributor”, merely a telephone transmitting the words of heaven.

But yet this ‘impersonal’ mode of transmission seems to give you a tremendous sense of your own self-righteousness - a ‘responsibility’ to call out the moral turpitude of anyone who doesn’t swallow your so-called ‘impersonal’ pronouncements without objection.

If the ego, the ‘I’, is not actually, factually dissolved, then any appearance of impersonality is - for me - a lie, a self-deception. At the very least it creates needless confusion.

So I don’t think it is wrong to be personal in pointing this out. You demand that others listen to what you are ‘impersonally’ pointing out, but your replies make it clear that you either are unable - or you simply do not wish - to acknowledge what has also been pointed out to you.

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