Ending the self

This seems to be at the core of your approach, though I confess that I still don’t really understand it.

You seem to have made ‘technical thought’ some kind of bedrock or foundation for pure perception (or something that comes into existence with pure perception)

and that a diet of this “technical thinking” (alongside a plant-based food and clean water - to which I have no objections!) is all that is required for sensitivity.

The implications of what you have written here (and previously) are that you are already living a daily life of pure perception, that you no longer have any sense of self, and so you no longer have any ‘feelings’.

But are you absolutely sure of this? Are you certain that you have no more traces of self, and that you live, day by day, in a state of pure perception?

This is important to ascertain in the context of how certain you seem to be about about love, about beauty, about the nature of the mind, what it means to live in a state of pure awareness, etc.

The issue of ‘feelings’ seems rather peripheral in relation to the central question above, but I will make one final attempt to understand it.

As far as I can see, it may simply be a matter of semantics. First of all (if you don’t mind) can we distinguish ‘feeling’ from emotion? Feeling has a more diffuse meaning for me, and what you are describing can (for me at least) more clearly be navigated by using more concrete language - such as ‘emotion’ - so I’ll be using this word here (where you use the word ‘feeling’).

Now, what you seem to be describing is the way that emotions are generated by the interplay of psychological thought with our biology. You write:

You then go on to suggest that by simply calling these resultant states (of fear, sadness, envy, jealousy, etc) “emotions” (with clearly ascertainable properties of their own), we are obliquely sustaining them, lending them a vitality that they needn’t have.

By refraining from calling an emotion an ‘emotion’ (i.e. of ‘fear’, ‘sadness’, ‘envy’, ‘grief’, etc), you argue, and by calling them instead “psychological images” or

you believe we stand a better chance of breaking the “virtual reality” of the central ‘self-image’ (created by our thinking) - and thereby be liberated of self.

Because you equate ‘emotion’ with this virtual reality of self, you feel that the word (‘emotion’) must be “negated” - as emotions are merely

Therefore you say that the use of the word (‘emotion’) is

because all there is is the ‘psychological movement of thought’ (acting on the body).

My criticism of this is that you are probably doing nothing more than adjusting conventional semantics to suite your own psychological temperament, and then dressing this up as some kind of spiritual achievement.

What you call “psychological movement of thought acting on the body” is just your way of naming what most people call emotion. Furthermore, you seem to miss the danger that this alternative ‘flavour’ of naming is just as susceptible to reification (of its object) - of nourishing and sustaining the self - as indulging in emotions.

Perhaps a meaningful analogy to help show what I mean is that of a rainbow: the artist looks at the rainbow and sees its colour, its atmosphere of quiet, the triumph of its arching splendour over the earth, straddling the worlds of tempest and sunshine. But the scientist (as a scientist) describes a rainbow in more reductionist terms, as

an optical illusion caused by any water droplets viewed from a certain angle relative to a light source. (Wikipedia)

Which description of the rainbow is the truer account? Surely they are both true in their own way. To prioritise one over the other is a matter of temperament - depending on whether you are more arts oriented or sciences oriented.

So similarly, what one person calls an ‘emotion’ (of fear, envy, sadness, anger, etc) you call a ‘specific movement of psychological images related to the body’ - only you believe that your semantic reframing of emotion is spiritually more refined, more detached, and reflective of a purer perception.

But is this language you are using the product of pure perception? - or is it merely the result of your own particular conditioning; which - by dismissing ‘emotion’ - is in fact maintaining your own ‘specific movement of psychological images’ (aka self-centre) from which you claim to be liberated?

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James -

The etymological meaning of the word ‘emotion’ is ‘agitation of the mind’ - as already pointed out. Which implies disorder, not order.

When technical thinking is in place, psychological thought does not exist - and there is nothing for the self to feed upon as there are no psychological images to artificially generate an internal fear response.

Why does one focus on the person who points out the hole in the road, and miss the actuality of the hole entirely?

And again - What was the wrong turn that K spoke about?

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And James - regarding the rainbow.

All the opinions of artists - or scientists - or anyone else - about the rainbow do not change the rainbow - or muddy its colours.

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Yes. As in - fear, envy, anger, jealousy, grief, etc. These are undeniably ‘disorders’, or perturbations, in the mind.

However, calling these same phenomena (aka emotions) something else - such as a specific movement of psychological images along with the simultaneous physical feedback of the body (or whatever language you might use) - doesn’t change the fact of what they are, right?

You are just reframing the same phenomenon in a language that is rather more complicated and has the appearance of disinterest. But emotions (whatever technical jargon you use to describe them!) are not disinterested phenomena ‘out there’ separate from you. They are the inevitable reactions of your own conditioning (whether you own up to them or not).

So to claim to be free of them - as when you say

is to claim to have emptied the contents of your consciousness. But have you actually done this?

The question of whether you have done such a thing - emptied the contents of consciousness - is entirely relevant. Because you are not the only person on this forum (or in real life) who is claiming absolute certainty for the statements you make.

Whether you are actually free from psychological images (aka emotions) becomes important in determining how seriously to take the statements you make - your “pointing out”.

There has already been a person who pointed out the self, the nature of the self, and the ending of self - and that person talked a lot about observing one’s fear, pleasure, hurt, envy, jealousy, hate, aggression, sorrow (one’s reactions in daily life).

So why, if you haven’t actually freed yourself from psychological images, should one listen to your incredibly complex (and indigestible) descriptions - which you state as absolute certainties - instead?

Yes. The rainbow - in this case you - is still there, however disinterested or rationalised into non-existence it appears to be.

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When I asked Patricia whether she "got’’ what K was trying to get across, her reply was, “Get what? The truth is there - the door is open.” Why participate in K discussion forums for years if all you can do is repeat what K said?

Would someone who actually “gets” what K was talking about be wasting their time in K discussion forums? I’m here because so much of what K said is unclear and inexplicable. Those who boast that the teaching is crystal clear and simple to them participate in K forums because their conceit (that they “get it”) has meaning only to people who are trying to find out what they are not getting. It is only in K discussion forums that those who believe they’ve got it can publicly gloat.

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Do you think that someone who’s interested in K stuff reads what goes on here and though they might like to say something but not being especially articulate, hesitate after reading the ‘clash of the titans’ class recent posts and this very latest, daring anyone to come on here and say that they ‘got’ anything.

That would be a pity. Btw, I think that I almost got it.:shushing_face:

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Antibiotics might help.

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That’s a question without a question mark.

Every K discussion group has a few of these posers, and usually no one calls them out. Why? Is it because, like you, they’re afraid of discouraging honest, inquiring people? I think it’s more likely that honest inquirers are intimidated by the know-it-alls than by those who call them out.

Good point Dan. The thing being, is it that important to be affirmative about what we’ve got ? Is this is helping in anyway ? Must importantly though is to create an environnement where the members can express themselves without fear, and are welcome , if I may say.

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As time goes on , I think we all begin to see that we are “posers”… if we’re lucky :four_leaf_clover:

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James -

This contributor has made NO personal statements about anyone, you included.

So it is concerning when a poster - whoever he/she may be - reverts to making images of another contributor simply because he/she might not agree with what that contributor has stated.

Instead of finding out the universal TRUTH of what the contributor has said, with enquiry into its actuality, the entrenched habit of psychological image-making arises yet again, as he/she simply attempts to admonish the contributor with personal image attacks…the SAME pattern of psychological image-making (WAR) that is at the root of all human disorder.

All posts of this contributor are genuine non-personal attempts to communicate the difficulties of understanding and ending psychological time, raising many challenges and questions that the brain has for several million years, since its emergence from the background of evolution, been unable to elucidate or unravel.

Again the avoided unanswered K question still hangs in the balance: What wrong turn did humans take?

And the elusive fact of the RAINBOW radiantly glows in the dawn of timelessness…continuing to touch the perceptive eternally.

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Rack 'em! :slight_smile:


Patricia
I hope it’s not ‘eating meat’… because if so, I’m screwed.

DanMcD on a roll tonight! :slight_smile:

For the record - an interesting example:

People suffering severe cases of fear of spiders - arachnophobia - attending arachnophobia therapy sessions, learn to see that the actual spider is NOT their psychological image of a spider.

Once the real is perceived as different from their image of a spider, and the movement of that spider image is understood, it ends - as does their fear of spiders. It is that simple.

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Pat,

“agora”, from the Greek, means a space, out in the world, but one gets your point…
just googled, Arachnophobia - saw the film… :slight_smile:

Charlie - it is corrected now - thanks.

My wife and I have been called arachnophiles because, I suppose, we capture those spiders that come into the house and release them unharmed into the woods.

Dan -

Michael and I do the same.

We have very venomous spiders here in Australia, and inside the house they could be a danger to our cat - or to us - so we capture them very carefully into a jar and release them back into the garden.

The harmless ones we are happy to just live with.

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Dan and Pat,

Where I live (Vancouver island), don’t really see snakes at all, hardly any flies either, so no screens on patio door window, so occasionally a fly or bee makes it into the open window and gets caught between the drape and window… so have to close all the lights, and open window door open wide and close the drapes so that the insect sees the light outside and usually just flies out. No pets though, would love to have a dog, and could get one… but it bothers one the idea of owning something that breathes.

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