What is it to be transformed?

[danmcderm]

@Inquiry

I doubt that it was the transformation K talked about.

That is what we, the un-transformed, have to grapple with: telling a transformation wannabe from the real thing?

[BobHearns]

@danmcderm

Bob you go go on K sites, judge from people’s posts that they haven’t ‘transformed’ after many years etc. so please describe what this process is as you understand it, as it happened to you. I understand that the “description is not the described” but I think it would be interesting to hear from someone other than K who had and is living this ‘transformation’.

Ok, danmcderm, let’s do it. I’m not going to teach you anything. Are you listening (in this case reading) with a motive? It’s late and I’m tired. I will read your response tomorrow.

[Inquiry]

@danmcderm

That is what we, the un-transformed, have to grapple with: telling a transformation wannabe from the real thing?

A radically transformed brain would have no reason to announce itself as such, and we probably wouldn’t know a transformed brain if it spoke to us, so what’s to “grapple” with?

[danmcderm]

When I first heard about ‘transformation’ , I thought it to be similar to ‘satori’, enlightenment, a permanent state of mind…now for me it makes more sense to think of it as something that takes place in the moment. A transformation of ‘dissonance’ into ‘harmony’…not only in myself, the ending of conflict but in relation to others: to become aware of and let go whatever it is I am ‘holding’ that creates a dissonance between us. It is a ‘work’ in the moment.
Seeing the ‘resistance’ to what is.

[macdougdoug]

Enlightenment and satori (or kensho) are what we call psychological death and the states of consciousness that they provoke.
If anyone claims that these are permanent states, this is just their opinion.

Long lasting transformation (of our relationship to self or experience) can result from these states (though not necessarily - as the conditioned mind and its tendancy for knowing runs deep).

[Jobuys]

Let us not speculate about “now”.
Does it exist at all? Or is it another invention of thought? Why?
Maybe we can go into this?

[Inquiry]

@danmcderm

It is a ‘work’ in the moment.

What isn’t “a work in the"moment”? Now is all there is.

[Jobuys]

It has to do with time. Work, better maybe inquiry, can not be done tomorrow because tomorrow may never come.

[Jobuys]

And when you say “now is all there is”,
Then i will ask you : how come?
And plz don’t answer that i am the one to figure this out because we are inquiring.

[O7007]

“What is it to be transformed?”
The Brain cells…

[walkus]

“What is to be transformed?”
The relationship to reality

[Jobuys]

We want to be transformed. Why?
Is it because we are not happy with our lives? Not at all content with our relations, being very close or far away.
Do we even consider the man/woman/child in another continent, living in miserable conditions, without being depressed by it.
Do you think that transformation will solve these problems?
So we have to look into this tranformation and what it is all about.
Shall we do this?

[macdougdoug]

@Jobuys

Do you think that transformation will solve these problems?

In this day and age, I think it is safe to say that nearly all the material destruction and suffering happening on the planet is due to our fear and selfishness.

@Jobuys

So we have to look into this tranformation and what it is all about.
Shall we do this?

How would you like to proceed with this inquiry?

[Jobuys]

Ok! The word means changing in form, in shape.
Change is being involved, change from one form to another.
It makes me think of a kind of evolution.
Evolve from one thing to another, no?
And this will take time. So time is also involved. So we have to go into time.
Do we continue?

[O7007]

@WimOpdam

Questioner: Is there such a thing as transformation? What is it to be transformed?

Krishnamurti: When you are observing, seeing the dirt on the road, seeing how politicians behave, seeing your own attitude towards your wife, your children and so on, transformation is there. Do you understand? To bring about some kind of order in daily life, that is transformation; not something extraordinary, out of this world. When one is not thinking clearly, rationally, be aware of that and change it, break it. That is transformation. If you are jealous watch it, don’t give it time to flower, change it immediately. That is transformation. When you are greedy, violent, ambitious, trying to become some kind of holy man, see how it is creating a world of tremendous uselessness. I don’t know if you are aware of this

K clarifies what transformation is . Let’s stick to something and try not to confuse…

[O7007]

@WimOpdam

To bring about some kind of order in daily life, that is transformation; not something extraordinary, out of this world.

We make things complicated for no reason.

@WimOpdam

When one is not thinking clearly, rationally, be aware of that and change it, break it. That is transformation. If you are jealous watch it, don’t give it time to flower, change it immediately. That is transformation.

So transformation is timeless.

[Inquiry]

@O7007

So transformation is timeless.

K was not referring to or implying timelessness when he said, “When one is not thinking clearly, rationally, be aware of that and change it, break it.”

And this raises the question of whether one ever knows when one is not thinking clearly, rationally, because the confused, conflicted, irrational mind doesn’t know what it is doing. If, by some miracle, it did know what it was doing, it would quit doing it immediately.

[O7007]

@Inquiry

because the confused, conflicted, irrational mind doesn’t know what it is doing.

on the contrary it knows exactly what it is doing when is pointed out to. But ignorance is something else…

[Inquiry]

@O7007

on the contrary it knows exactly what it is doing when is pointed out to.

Confused, conflicted, irrational people are in denial about what they’re doing, no matter how often it’s brought to their attention.

[macdougdoug]

@Jobuys

Change is being involved, change from one form to another…
And this will take time. So time is also involved. So we have to go into time.

What changes in form are you thinking of? Why are you pointing out that it takes time - what is it about this passage of time that we need to understand?

For example, if we take one idea stated in the thread that the transformation we are talking about is a change in attitude regarding our own experience. Does this require any structural change over time?

Is it fair to say that the change in our relation to the known can occur naturally/immediately via seeing what we are?