The mind, the psychology, is what we have to look at for oneself, as in self reflection. It is an obvious condition of the human being that can be seen for oneself. I don’t see the point of discussing it as if it isn’t immediate to life. What I am doing is not different to what I am doing right now. If I am in isolation, then I look at this contemplatively, fully embracing the condition, and not maintaining it as some strategy, not as some ability, even if it seems likely this is what I am doing.
There is nothing obvious to the brain determined to keep anything that is obvious at bay indefinitely. Krishnamurti effectively wanted to dynamite reality, but who here or anywhere else is actually up for that? And as long as anything of this reality pertains it will be an experience of unrelenting isolation regardless of how engaged I think I am.
Yes yes yes. If we have ‘image’ of others - that he/she is ‘correct/wrong’ - then we are caught in that. The same is for other person too. We have to come out of each other’s image - to observe what happens actually. Or else both are deluded and there will be fight,etc… because of ‘image/belief’.
And yes - if we start with beliefs - we don’t move further. That belief restrict us to enquire together, whatever the belief is.
You see the fear in your isolation. Right?. Observing and enquiring something is not a problem solver. Because only through enquiry - one can see - what is the root of the fear/isolation. And if you enquire about this in isolating yourself - you may also get caught in an ‘idea’. But if we enquire together in a dialogue - then the dialogue itself reveals - what happens actually in brain(not yours’/mine - but humanity), and why it is so limited - in thought, desire and time. If we actually see it - then there is choiceless awareness of everything and no ‘I’ which is ‘fear,etc…’ springs up.
There is a difference, observing I have thoughts on the mind, and speculating about some ability.
Therefore you don’t say, ‘I am the fruit.’ That’s all. Because then you are associating or identifying yourself with another image in order to escape from the self with all its misery of contradictory desires.
If you are offended or hurt by the bluntness of what I am saying, find out why. It is impossible to be hurt by the truth. But when you hold on to opinions and images about yourself, everything else is seen through that screen; and it is the screen, the barrier, that gets hurt.
Brother - I am not hurt/offended. Because there is no ‘I’ in this fruit - which i’m living and sharing with you. I am just so much worried, because of the ‘Love’ present with every humans i meet with - “Why they are seeing that, they share it now together, but they also say, if you want it go get it. Because ‘want’ is a ‘desire’, which leads to ‘pleasure’ if succeeded and ‘pain’ if failed.”
It is ‘Love’ brother, what we are sharing now. I’m just using the letter ‘I’ to convey textually to others - as there is no way in Language to type. But I observe that - if we have conversation in-person, then you may observe what i feel. And you may observe that the fruit is not perishable. There is nothing to disturb it.
It’s fine brother. Take care. But if one day - you observe that - you are caught in belief that ‘there is no freedom at all’ - then you may come out from it - and I’m always here to enquire about everything what happens in this world actually.
There is no freedom at all in beliefs, images and ideals; no part of the self is free. This is a fact, not a belief. The direct perception of this fact is freedom. Finito.
So - you say - you directly perceive this fact ‘now’ - and so you are free from everything. Right?
You say it verbally or you actually see that?
Yes I agree. Obviously the same conditions apply to isolation as they do fear, in the sense, isolation is not my isolation, and I am not separate from it, and isolation is not the word. The thing of which I speak has nothing to do with being a hermit in a cave, as set against being a fully engaged member of a community, such as one of the Krishnamurti schools, or having a career and family, with wealth and power. It is a fundamental characteristic of the human being, which the wanting and the having merely covers up, and for which the cover functions as an avoidance and an escape. And yes, the notion of isolation being, just as that of conflict, can be a belief and yet another delusion, along with finding that all out.
Yes.
But, i’m asking - you are isolated. If one trying to escape from isolation - as you said, then there is conflict. But can one observe and enquire - ‘what’ makes me isolated from others?
Sorry, i can’t understand what you say. If you say I exist or imagine I exist. Then there exists difference between observer and what is observed.
So, don’t acknowledge or name it. Just watch - why there is isolation.
It might be good to a new thread with this and to open it out to other participants. I’d also like to suggest that we go into this matter slowly so that we have the possibility of actually discovering something new.
I am saying the very fact that I exist, psychologically. That I exist or think or imagine I exist, in a very strong, persistent manner, is the very fact of isolation. That is isolation comes into being the moment I am, such that trying to then construct a notion of together is doomed to failure.
No. No. don’t try anything. Don’t say anything. Just observe - why there is isolation, what is there that makes isolated from others. That means - the cause of you are isolation actually and not verbally that - “because of I - there is isolation”. That is, is the fear of going outside makes you isolated or like that something.
Well first of all is isolation seen?
As I said, I may be wrong, but I think that there are different degrees of awareness and it’s not all or nothing (aware or not aware). Just watching Krishnamurti in his talks one can see that he was extremely alert, listening with great attention and replying to questions with a crystal clear mind. I wonder if we are really fully aware at any time or if we more or less always have some chatter of thought going on in our heads.
If isolation is painful - then it can be seen actually. But if it gives pleasure - then we have to enquire further - why does it gives pleasure.
It is so. There is no me to see it. So if you say, ‘Well, I don’t see it,’ you are missing the point: there is nothing for me or you to do about it.
I can see - what you say - eevrything. But the only thing I differ is of your thought that - “there are different degrees” - because in my view actually, not as thought - “that there is awareness. Or there is no awareness at all.” That’s why i ask to show a situation of “partial awareness”. If there is no situation - then we may caught in an idea/belief that there is partial awareness. But if it is a fact, then I may learn from it.