And to realize that those and other reactions are reactions of the ‘self’. The self is fear. The fears, confusions and anxieties of childhood. Suppressed and covered over.
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Agreed. 
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I think there is a substantial % of people (particularly those who are in no immediate danger) who do not feel fear as a first reaction to the Ukraine invasion. Rather: anger, disgust, shame, hatred, compassion, sadness, love. To reduce these all to fear would be imo a mistake.
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What’s wrong with trying?
No, it is worse than nothing. When it is partial, it is your property, your baby, the result of your efforts; you are still involved in it up to the neck. A partial realisation is still just a theory. What is wrong with nothing? At least then there is a freedom to look all around, not merely in one very limited direction.
Dear James,
Yes, very much so. Here, we are on the same page. This is the conditioning. Yes.
However, when you state:
Any child who has some “experience” which so imprints itself upon the child is caused by some situation which either scares the living daylights of the child, causes enormous pain, sorrow, etc. as you mentioned…
One can take many examples, a dog bites a child (which never happened to Charley), feels physical pain, etc. and it is only after that experience (the conditioning), has thoughts from a memory of that experience and is terrified of all dogs later on because the conditioned memory is one of physical pain.
Not that this example ever happened to Charley, but … say, “My mother died. All of a sudden she isn’t there.” So, there is sorrow/sadness experienced, from the loss, the separation. This is the conditioning, okay?..Do you follow? The child cries, as he/she misses the mother. The fact is the mother is now permanently absent. It is from this conditioning that thought arises. It is not from thought that sorrow begins. It is from the experience of loss. The way you expressed it suggests that thought as you say creates the sorrow. But, it is the other way around. Now, can you see that the experience creates the conditioning (of suffering) and then leads to thoughts…? So, insofar as Charley sees it, thought is the result of the sorrow, and as thought persists and changes over time, it is still the symptom of the suffering. So, to heal the sorrow, do you not consider it relevant/important/crucial to discover the cause of the thoughts (which is only the symptom of a malaise), and not the cause?
You see, initially, one brought up the word “conditioning” when one became a member, quite a few members dismissed … scoffed at that word. And, one raised an eyebrow and wondered what on earth was going on in this site, from the following comments from my thread on relationships: (posts 31 ff…)
So as one participated on this site, one discovered that the reason why so many did not have a clear understanding of “conditioning” was that basically they had not seen the conditioning and the closest they got to the conditioning were thoughts - which to Charley were only symptoms of the deeper conditioning, but not the conditioning itself at all. For the majority of participants here, it seems that the initial conditioning had never seemed to arisen… Now, Charley could be wrong, but it is not like people on this site are citing and discussing the fact that there was the seeing of the conditioning and the understanding of such conditioning and the freedom felt from that.
Stupid trying to be intelligent is just stupid. Intelligence doesn’t have to try to be intelligent. Sadness doesn’t have to force out the tears.
Too many fakes already in the world. Why does this have to be spelt out?
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to distinguish immediate psycho-physical reactions (of fear, shock, loss, grief, etc) from what K called psychological fear, suffering, etc?
Obviously there are simple psycho-physical reactions, as when we see (or get bitten by) a dangerous animal, or when someone close to us dies, or when we witness a horrific incident (as in war), and so on. These are more or less immediate physical shocks. Such shocks do not need to be maintained over time as psychological fear, sorrow, etc.
Psychological suffering on the other hand is precisely what is built up over time. It requires a stockpiling of memory (as in attachment), image-making (of oneself and others), which produces - as on a conveyor belt - at the end psychological suffering, self-pity, hate, etc. Similarly with psychological fear: such fear is built up out of identification (which, to begin with, creates a feeling of security, pleasure), continuity, and projection into the future (as future insecurity, pain). This is maintained solely through thought/time.
As psycho-physical organisms, psycho-physical shocks and reactions are inevitable. But K teaches, as you know, that such reactions do not need - as if by a law of nature - to turn into psychological “conditioning” (to use that word); i.e., as (psychological) fear, suffering, hurt, etc.
If one were able - by some piece of magic - to remove thought/time completely from one’s psychological conditioning, would there be psychological conditioning (with its fear and suffering) at all? Or would there only be the psycho-physical conditioning of the organism? That seems to be the question K is asking as I understand it.
That’s definitely how it feels at times! You can find lots of meaning and comfort (suffering too) in unrealized conventional life. Fully realized you live in intelligence and equanimity. You can feel ‘at home’ in either extreme.
But halfway between, in the limbo of partial realization, you have neither the default conditioned refuge of the conventional, nor the unconditioned freedom of realization. Yuck!
I don’t see things as stupid vs. intelligent. I see degrees and context-driven types of intelligence. I find ‘trying’ to be a perfectly valid method for learning and evolving. You?
Nobody - The self is a centre from which it reacts. In that reaction there is no doubt, as the self cannot shift its position.
The self is incapable by definition of free association.
Doubt is free association - the ability of the mind to shift its position from a stultified central focus of self.
The unsureness of self is not doubt. It is simply an inability to see the whole.
For the mind to free associate, pure perception and technical thought are at one.
Where psychological thought acts, there is a division between pure perception and the measurer measuring him/her self as his/her self identity.
That cannot end while there is no genuine doubt that the self is real and unique.
Genuine doubt is an ACTION of negation.
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Dear James,
Not sure what you mean, by differentiating:
from:
Like most people here, watch the news re: Ukraine and am horrified.
One sees an explosion on a residential building, and one feels the explosion inside. The shelter, anyone’s shelter has been destroyed - it is also Charley’s shelter. The empty space within resonates with the explosion seen on the screen. One sees many men completely devastated by having to say goodbye to their children, wives. Their grief/sorrow is palpable. Charley’s eyes water up. For a moment, Charley is the father. Please understand, it is: “I am you”. You see, one doesn’t consider the sorrow one felt, the tears, etc. as a reaction, one has never really put into words - a label - such as “psycho-physical reaction” to the tears arising when one witnesses someone else’s sorrow. There are no more words.
One doesn’t understand when you say:
It’s when you include self-pity, hate… One has witnessed someone years ago wallowing in self-pity at a gathering, a party - felt nothing - self-pity is an escape from psychological sorrow. One has witnessed someone feeling hatred towards Charley, felt nothing - hatred is not part of sorrow, nope, don’t see that. There was this seeing of malice… incredible.
Don’t know what to say re: above para., never wondered about that. If anything, one could paraphrase this statement as: Can one remove all psychological conditioning so as to end thought? Do you understand? Don’t feel fear at all, even last year when physical well-being threatened by guy. Somehow, considering and reviewing what you state in this paragraph, I doubt that this is possible, because one has discovered how complex everything is inside. Even K experienced the “process” **(see last italics paragraph below) which cleans out everything - more than once. You wouldn’t believe what is involved in all of this, so I won’t go into it. He also woke up in a meditative state, which Charley also lives. So, why did (with K) and do (with Charley) all these other things also occur even after the “I” took a hike, and all major conditioning had been seen? Your para seems to suggest that there is the possibility of eliminating all psychological conditioning just by removing thought/time - this is not something one ever wondered or even asked of oneself. You see, one could always sense that there was still stuff inside years ago, one called it “stuff”… and the only thing that concerned Charley was to see this “stuff”. There are many channels inside (one discovered these), and one could send one’s breath through all of them, and occasionally - in the past - one sensed little “bumps” of things, etc. here and there - one called these little bumps “stuff”. For Charley, one had to see the conditioning - the actual event[s], to end even thoughts, like a whole chunk of thoughts disappearing all at once after having seeing each one of the conditioned events. To Charley, it’s almost as if the conditioning controlled and moderated what thoughts arise/arose.
You see, once the source of psychological insecurity is seen, there are no more thoughts which arise which are concerned at all with what one should or could do… those disappeared, never to return. It’s almost amusing - one is faced in situations, which others might consider quite stressful and who wait for Charley to have some reaction, and there are just no thoughts about anything at all, no reaction. One has made statements to others (i.e. “you got this idea from social media !!.. that’s rubbish”… “ah, conspiracy theory, ridiculous” and watched without any reaction at all, as they stood there screaming and yelling (arms flailing) at Charley.
Originally, there was the seeing of Charley verbalizing inside (the mirror that intelligence had created and that has completely disappeared) expressing all the pros and cons of what to do… and eventually those thoughts backtracked to … lol… don’t recall… but once the conditioning was gone, so were all those thoughts. Perhaps, this is magical thinking to suggest what you did suggest.
You do realize that K had a tendency - 
- to verbalize what others thought and wondered about, eh??..
(Sorry, about the delay in posting this, but someone came to see one…).
**The stockpiling of all the conversations which one has had over time - which you referred to as “Psychological suffering” - the memory - is entirely “erased” (cleaned out) in the “process”….
Paul - the self is war. War continues because the self does not end.
The discussion, now that war is in full flight, needs to (finally) be about understanding - and ending - the movement of self.
We can all find security in sharing our fear - but that is just more navel-gazing, which feeds the fear - and the self.
What do you feel? I feel afraid. What about you? Are you going to give it some other word?
I am not seeking security. There is no security in this world. I feel afraid. Don’t you? This is not about indulging our emotions or sharing our beliefs about what will put an end to things. Can we just look together very simply at what we are and how we feel without explaining it all away?
Forget either extreme - these two are also both theories. To have nothing, no answer whatsoever, this is our actual state.
I’m very curious, why only Putin is shown as “the cause” of Violence in Ukraine?
Why not NATO or US or Zelensky? If Zelensky had not try to make business ties with NATO or US from 2020 - this war wouldn’t have happened. If NATO had not tried to join Ukraine as it’s member, this wouldn’t have happened. If Zelensky had seen the violence that might come in Feb 2022, he should have surrendered to Russia/Putin - so that violence might not happen and no inhumane actions, but he didn’t and contributed for War, though he knew US won’t support directly and gonna lose with Russia. US know Russia can beat Ukraine, but wanted to hit Russia largely (Both Economically and Materially) by using this as a Chance, and create a hatred towards “Russia” in the name of “Human Rights” - etc.,
Yes, Putin acts as a “dictator”. But I don’t see he is the “Only Dictator”. Every Politicians in every states. More than Putin, it’s US that is being the “Business Dictator”. By rendering a helping hand to Ukraine, it wanted to safeguard it’s Number 1 position in World Trade and Economy from the threat of China and Russia. It actually helps hand to make business slaves for them. No independent decisions actually happens wherever US poked nose in, examples of Iran and Afghanistan shows it well.
By taking the power of Ukraine, US thought to expand it’s market and also in future beat the Russia so that one day Russia might plea to them. Russia made many talks with Ukraine and US regarding this. US didn’t backed up. US was very hungry to make slaves for them, which Zelensky too wants. Putin don’t know how to safeguard Russia from US/NATO threats, and now war broke out.
Even K, stood not only against Hitler (as he the cause like Putin), but also against Winston Churchill and many and every politics.
Why do people close one eye, and always blame only Physical Violence starters. Why not the Psychological Violence creators?
Now in Norway, a Big Military exercise is being conducted by NATO forces.
Also, it’s only Putin who attacks Ukraine but not the whole Russians. Why European Union or America or Canada, attack the innocent Russian people? By curbing individual wishes of Russian people (to participate in Russian events, to make Forex trades, etc.,) - why to curb the innocent individual people of Russia in the name of “Putin”? Doesn’t that look Inhumane?
Only Direct Violence creator is “Dictator” but not the Indirect Slave creators (Psychological violence creators) are “Dictators”?
Even now, by seeing many deaths of their countrymen, both Zelensky and Putin can stop war. But they didn’t. Both want to possess/control. Isn’t both of them Inhumane (Including the spark creator like a joker in the cards who dominates the whole card Game - US)?
US tries many ways to safeguard it’s dominating position on Developing countries, and maintain it’s No.1 position and make many nations it’s puppet. Russia had shown it’s opposition in an Inhumane way. Yes. But, it’s only NATO pushed Russia to take this decisions. Why NATO steps in in Ukraine? What business they want there other than to make Russia dependent on them? Why Russia should become a slave to NATO?
One cannot see only Russia’s actions in Ukraine, but also NATO, also US, cannot neglect anything which cause trouble/violence, whatever form it might be.
I have many views to share here, but if it’s one pointed game against Russia and neglect every other countries actions, I’m sorry - I’m out of that Game and I choose (Not choose but choicelessly observe) the Truth behind every actions.
No Nation wants to be a slave to another. This is Fact. Every Nation wants to be treated Equal/more powerful (Economically-and also in many cases), and it creates Violence.
What’s the intelligent way to understand is to see the “Domination/Power/Control” of ALL Nations striving (Both Developed and Developing) - and many wars happens silently or violently to acquire and safeguard the “Power”.
Every Nation thinks “Power gives Freedom” “Power makes one nation Independent”. This is Fact, and do any action what it feels right for this “Power”.
Hi James. A BIG NO.
Individually to one, can be choicelessly aware and step aside. But as a whole humanity, it WON’T.
Time/Thought is the striving force of LIFE. Not just for Human beings but also in all Living Beings. Science/Biology accepts this, that war is in every kind of species, to make one the powerful “Survival of the Fittest”.
Collectively, it won’t stop in Human beings, and there will be no end for Conflicts and War as a whole. Power to Control is the food for Conflict and War. The need of Power blocks one to see or listen or observe.
Say in case any one member in the Russian Chair, sees all these Inhumanity and questions others, he will be murdered soon by the High Officials - like we don’t know the whereabouts of Doctors from Wuhan Institute of Virology.
No one can stand against “Power”, Unless “Power” does. “Love” cannot stand against “Power”. “Love” can only watch everything power does by standing aside. To change the one with “Power”, only a big “Power” can. But, that is not true change only a temporary peace. No True end/change can be bought against this “Power or Domination or Control”.
This is Life.
K, thought that it’s the “Idealism” or “Religion” or “Love to Nation” - creates Violence in World. But, not so. It’s “Control”. Whomever “Controls” thinks he/she is in “Heaven” - “The Lord of ALL”. Nothing to do with Soldiers/Patriotism. Even now the Russian soldiers are fighting not just as a Patriot, but in fear of Putin - “Power” or in Anger against US/NATO - “Power”. This what happened in case of German soldiers in 1940s, fight in fear of Death in hands of their High Officials, or for a good life assured for their family by the Officials/Politicians. Right?
“Power” controls the World and “Love” heals one who seeks it Individually. “Love” cannot heal the whole world but only few who are serious.
“Love” can heal only the “wounded” (one who suffers of this power game and serious to look into).
No Humanity, as a whole, can live peaceful Humane (no war) life, ever. But, Individually one can.
Thank you. 
I…don’t Know Paul. I can see people afraid, but I don’t know whether I am afraid or not.
Is it simple enough?
If I’m breaking into pieces (which should not be done in your view), please say me what I should do.
When we grasp the fact that we don’t and can’t know all the facts, we are freed from the obligation to ‘take sides’ in any of it.
We don’t know all the facts, yes.
But, we can’t know!!? I don’t think so. Joe Biden can. If Joe Biden and Chief Senators and Putin and many such leaders can, anyone who has the same power he/they possess, can truly know all the facts of human actions. That’s why Humanity seek such power/domination/control - to know many things/facts easily and react. That seeking power creates tremendous violence. Power let’s one know all the physical actions. Yes, that’s the Power of Power.
But, if one is aware that, Power cannot last long in knowing all facts, only for a while - Power is Powerful, and if one is choicelessly aware that Power cannot stop one from Sufferings, Seeking Power ends…Power leads to Knowledge but Knowledge cannot end Sufferings. So, power is useless against sufferings. Power cannot bring back the dead one. Power cannot make things last long, whatever facts Power knows. Power cannot show the Truth. Oh God, what a great Manga “Naruto” and “Naruto Shippuden” are.
There is no need of ‘taking sides’. Just aware of every actions and not get attached with it, whatever the action maybe, even if it “the process”, even if it is Beauty, even if it is peace, all actions/experiences are past/Conditions - Isn’t it @charleycannuck ? . That’s Freedom.
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Who or what performs the negation?
I feel a bundle of things: anxiety, sorrow, anger, disgust, elation, curiosity, hope, resignation. If I lived in Ukraine or a neighboring country to the west I might fear something closer to ‘pure’ fear. Or maybe not, I can’t know for sure since it’s hypothetical.