Yes, but before we go any further into the word ‘relationship’, it is you and I going into it. So our relationship is the only what is. Do you accept this?
I do not quite follow your point. When we go into it, it is us going into it. The way we do it is our relationship.
So you are free of suffering? Is that what you like to say? Because if the whole circus starts again than there is no freedom, it is this circus.
Yes - after ‘one i’m attached with is no-more’ - i’m alone after returning home - and i don’t know what to do next - how to spend time the rest of my life - and so the whole circus of sufferings.fear,images,pleasure starts again.
Not just the way we do it. The whole field of enquiry is relationship, starting with ourselves and moving out from there. So there is no such thing as separation at this point.
Again, is this a fact to you or just an idea, a theory? And to follow your saying, if it is a fact, you meet without separation, without conditiong. So what there is then to enquire for you?
So not freedom is the fact but suffering. Can we not only then begin to understand it?
Yes. We’re alone and the fact is suffering.
So how to begin - to understand the suffering?
Dear Viswa,
to find out, what it is. What does it mean to suffer? Are there not wishes involved? Our will, the wanting of something else than what is? What is this wanting?
It has nothing to do with me. You are bringing in separation; I am not. I’m saying at this point there is no separation. We haven’t even started to look, so how can there be a separation? We said we’ll start with the two of us and move out from there. Let’s look and find out what there is to enquire into.
That is strange what you are saying. By the way we both talked about separation. But even if just I brought it in. To me it is a fact. If you look at the way we humans live together there is separation everywhere. Take the corona pandemic you can see separation everywhere and all the problems resulting out of this not meeting and looking at a crisis together. We are part of this. And even if we might meet for an enquiry that fact is still there. And my question was, can we start with that and find out, how separation comes about? Is someone who feels no fear at the moment free of fear? Can one only enquire into fear, if one actually feels it? Obviously we do not move together, so there is separation. That is a fact and would be something to enquire in.
Look, we are separate. That’s the fact. We said all this. So we are looking to see what actually separates us. There may be nothing at all that separates us, but we shall not know until we look at it together. However, if we assume psychological separation is an established fact we have already created an artificial answer to our question: what is it that separates us? In other words, we have allowed an idea or a concept, a label, to take precedence over the act of looking.
Is it a fact or an assumption? You sound really confused. I do not know if you do, but I did not assume anything about separation. I said, that separation is a fact to me. You can see it everywhere and we can start there, find out about it. What is it? If separation than would be still there is another question but now it is there. Saying there may be nothing at all that separates us is an assumption because separation is there now. Maybe we should also clarify what a fact is. To me it is something that is now real, that exists. That does not mean it is there tomorrow because things change. And is this enquiry just about us two or do we enquire into things we share with all humans?
One more thought: The existence of an illusion is a fact. But the nature of an illusion is, that its content is not a fact. Anyhow the illusion exists.
So Erik,
you observe the ‘suffering’ in your loneliness and you see that there is ‘want for something’ more than ‘what-is’ present always.
Let we see what this ‘want for something more than what is’ drives every living being.
- A male animal - ‘wants a new partner more than what is’
- A female animal - ‘wants to provide security to what I her give birth and fight with it when she wants to secure it’s place’
- A person below poverty line - ‘wants food/cloth/shelter’ which is a responsibility to take care of him and dependents - but after it is succeeded - ‘want for coming above poverty line’ is created - ‘want to go for a good job to earn more money and studying hard to succeed it’
- After he comes out from poverty line - he joins the middle-class group - and with the money he earned - there is a ‘want for a partner and children’ to take care of him and to provide him a good ‘name’ in the society. After he is married - there is a ‘want for a car’ and struggles for that. Then after he gets the car - there is a ‘want for an own house’ as there is no actual relationship with the owner of the rented home he resides or etc… reasons - and he struggles to buy a house. Then there is a ‘want to provide better education to his children in a top class university’ and he struggles and find a better job to earn more money. Then there is a ‘want to join the high class group’
- So to join the high class group - he earns money mostly evading laws/etc… then he joins the high class group by getting a good ‘name/fame’ in the society. Then there is a ‘want to invest money - to earn more returns’ and he fights for that - if he lose money - he struggles to pay debt and if he gains - he ‘wants to hold the position and become a celebrity’ and after become a ‘celebrity/ no.1 billionaire’ - he is frustrated of the society and opens a trust/fund for the society - which the competitors/politicians won’t leave to do so - and he frustrated of this whole life and ‘want to be free’ and search for ‘god’.
Also first there was only one business of ‘agriculture’ to satisfy the need for ‘food’ - but the ‘want for something new variety or want for earn more money by reducing cost,energy,time,etc…’ many kind of business/education/research/science/technology evolved.
This is how the ‘want for something’ drives every beings in this universe.
So then - ‘what is this wanting?’
But that’s the assumption right there, when you say it is a fact to you. I have no facts whatsoever. Not one. I have only the desire to meet you, to look together, to think together, which means to start together at precisely the same place with precisely the same feeling. It is only our geographical distance that separates us until one of us brings in a fact and places that fact as an extra barrier between us. Until we are looking very carefully at the movement of our own thoughts and feelings, watching our own responses and reactions at the very moment they arise, separation is neither a fact nor an illusion. Separation and division may be a global fact; we may see this as we go along. But unless we start out very simply, very close, we shall only ever have a theoretical view of it, which is the root of all confusion because we then propose a whole raft of theoretical solutions to bridge the gap.
So let’s not be greedy. Let’s not grab for the solution of our global problems. Let’s start out humbly and slowly with the taste of one or two personal issues. If you see me as confused, I can make what I am saying simpler and simpler; that’s no problem for me. I want to meet you; and I won’t drop it.
Could you put what you are saying into one statement or question? Get to the heart of it so that it goes straight to my heart too.
Good morning Paul, what is desire? Is it not already an assumption? Is there not greed involved? Saying there are no facts or illusions is an assumption. Right now there is a lot of snow here, that is a fact. If someone feels fear that is a fact. All the things written here on this blog or in this forum are first of all words and thoughts. They might be just ideas or pointing to facts but they remain just words. And words will never be anything else as they are. They are words, descriptons. And descriptions are never the real thing, they describe. That is a fact. In that is a separation, speaking in a neutral way. The word is separate from e.g. a house it describes. The word “house” is not the house. It will never be. And it will neber be anything else even if it points to a fact. If there is an idea or an illusion, what do the words point to? That would be the question. But in order to explore it we have to see what we want to explore. Fear for example is to me a fact and I can start there. In that exploration I might find out whatever it is. But I have to start with its existence. If I already assume it might not exist, where should I start? If separation is for you not a fact, what will you enquire into? Is our geographical distance really separating us or just putting space between us? Are you not making again an assumption there? If we are not meeting in what is actually happening, we cannot explore. That is a fact. And let’s face this fact, we are not meeting. To me it is not a question of wanting. We simply do not meet. That is what is.
“I want to meet you” - listen to it. Don’t put a label on it. Don’t call it desire. Then you are pushing me off. Instead, what is your feeling when you hear this from me? Your deepest feeling, not how thought interprets that feeling.
There is snow here too.
I am not putting a label on you. You brought desire and wanting in here. I just wonder what you mean by desire and wanting? Why do you bring it in? We do not meet. That is a fact. Out of that we can act. Leave or explore together why we do not meet. But if we do the latter, why would we do it? If enquiry becomes its own purpose than it is just an intellectual game. I will not take part in that.
I said, separation is a fact to me and we experience it here. So can you meet me in that? I might just follow an illusion, the fact of an illusion. But that I do not see. I cannot see it because what is the only fact to me, is separation. Can you meet me in that?
Dear Viswa, I think we should leave the animals out, because we are not like them and can only speculate what they do. The only thing observing them is, that they are looking for basic needs which allow them to live like food, shelter etc. But is that our interest, when we want? Is more money a need to cover that needs which spring out of our physical existence - our organism which needs energy in form of oxygen, food, movement, warmth - and relation to the physical world with its different climates and conditions? Out of what springs our wanting? Is it not just thinking about ourselves and our emotions of pleasure and pain (not the feeling of physical pain) ?