Dear Viswa,
does a fact harm or lead to suffering apart from physical pain e.g. in case of an accident, a wound etc.? My mother died several years ago after a severe illness being only 66. That is the fact. But do I automatically suffer of this fact? Or do I suffer because out of this fact I react with images about myself, the loss, the pity, the pain, the wanting of a relation to my mother which does not exist anymore, wanting to hold on to the nice feelings between us or the dependence of her or what else? Am I concerned in that situation with the fact or just with the images about like, dislike, pain, pleasure, holding on to memories etc? Is there a psychological suffering if I just stay with the fact? There might be a sadness connected to the farewell but do I have to suffer? The same accounts for fear. If I face a dangerous situation is there fear? Or does fear just come in when I think about something?
The task of the thinking process is to create images, thoughts about something. Thinking can do that about anything - facts, objects, but also about illusions and about itself, knowledge etc. The images in the physical world are about concrete things which are independent from us like cooking a meal, finding a way home etc. The images are about something in order to fullfill a task. But about what are images when there is fear or suffering? What is the concrete thing about which I form an image? If suffering springs out of an image about ourselves then these images are just about what we think, what we memorized? I fear to have no success in the future is only a thought, an image. This fear springs out of a projection into the future about myself which is only just thinking. Am I making myself more understandable?
No, please, be very careful. Looking to see how it comes about is still looking for an answer. I donât want to see the reason why we are separate; that has nothing to do with it. It is like asking why I am living in one part of Europe and you are living in another. The reasons why we live where we live isnât what keeps us apart. The fact is we are separate. Geographically, we can erase that separation because we can see all the steps involved: the desire to meet, the map, the train or the plane timetables, the packing, the effort of making the physical journey and all the rest of it.
Now, thatâs the point â do we want to meet? Or is this just an intellectual exercise? If itâs just an exercise, weâll put a thousand barriers in the way, consciously and unconsciously. But if we really want to meet, nothing can stop us.
That is what we ask for quite a while? Is this just an intellectual exercise or do we want to meet? Do we want to see that there is separation? Do we want to meet the what is? There might be separation in distance but is this the separation we talk about? Are we meeting in talking about the same fact? Loneliness, fear, suffering are a separation. Meeting just intellectually is a sepration. That is a fact. That causes all these problems we see and experience like wars etc. So do we meet seeing that we are part of this separation? See how it comes about does not mean we are looking for an answer. It is exploring that thing we name separation. We learn what it is. That is all.
Thanks Erik - now itâs deep and understandable. Iâm also sorry for the loss of your mother.
So now, the fact does not brings sufferings/fear - and holding on to nice feelings may bring a little sadness - but you have pointed out about the word âdependenceâ.
I see this âdependence/attachment/securityâ to someone/something - brings the whole feelings of sufferings & fear. When my wife dead - i may be sad as you pointed out - but when i see a happy couple - there is sufferings that - âi donât have someone to be attached withâ and when we have a responsibility to cook/wash clothes/etc⌠by our own - we âsufferâ because of being dependant on them - and when we become old and being alone - we âsufferâ that - we donât have a wife/children to take care of us (i.e. security).
I see labelling/images has no place here - because an unmarried guy may also suffer - if he couldnât be attached with/ not have a person to spend time with (i.e. security for him) - which is a âfactâ.
And so - i say that - these âimagesâ are created as a defense - to come out from âsufferings/fearâ which is felt when we âdepend/attach/seek securityâ and couldnât get one.
Yes, seeking a security through something or someone. But actually - as in the case of a lost one we loved - we seek just security in images, thoughts, ideas hope that they physically might be fullfilled in the future. So we seek security in images. They become more important than the acutal fact of what is right now. So is the dependence we seek not really just a dependence on images, thinking, knowledge?
Nope - the dependence is not on dependence of thinking, images, knowledge - but the dependence is in physical way.
Like my wife dead now - iâm alone - after i done my job and return home at 6.00pm - i donât know what to do after 6.00pm - somehow i wash my clothes/took bath/eat food - it may take an hour and a half - after 7.30pm i donât know what to do till morning - and so i âsuffer/fearâ of this ânothingnessâ - and try to come out from this suffering - by creating an âimageâ that â watching movie/chatting with friends/another marriage/etcâŚâ may provide me âpleasureâ - but âsufferrings/fearâ is still there. Here the sufferings/fear is not based on dependence on images, thinking or knowledge - but becasue of ânothingnessâ and depending physically on a âperson/thing to spend our time withâ.
Dear Viswa, I understand. But what is this nothingness you feel? Is it an actual fact, whatever that may be, or is it an idea, an image about what nothingness might mean? Is there something you might get in touch with, something you do not know and immediately try to put into words, images because we are looking for security? And the unknown does not give us security?
This ânothingnessâ is there as an actual fact - and so we âsuffer/fearâ. It is not an image or âmeaningâ. Not at all.
And as you said - we couldnât find security/pleasure in this ânothingnessâ - because we may fail to observe the whole humanity - and we âsufferâ - and then we look for security by putting words/images.
In this very observation of ânothingnessâ and everything about humanity - there is freedom from everything - and there is actual ârelationship/love/compassion/etcâŚâ
Before any of that, do we want to meet each other? That means meeting individually as we are doing now and also meeting as part of the bigger group too. First, do we actually want to meet one another? If we say, âYes,â whatâs behind that answer? Why do you want to meet me? Why do I want to meet you?
But as we said earlier, do we suffer because of a fact? Or do we suffer because of an image about something we cling to ? To me seems very important to explore that. The fact of nothingness might be something completely new to me. Something I do not know and cannot grasp through my knowledge.
Donât use knowledge Erik.
Now just observe that - what you do after 7.30 pm - when you donât have a wife/friends/child/colleague/parents/mobile/computer/books/etcâŚ
Just observe this - and share your observation.
What does wanting mean to you? A goal, an answer etc? We meet. That is the fact. But how? Just physically, here through the typing? Just with our opinions, images, ideas? Or because we see a necessity to explore the what is, which in this case is separation and everything resulting from that? With what mind do we meet? Free to explore, whatever we might discover about ourselves or already bound to a direction, bound to knowledge?
I cannot quite follow. One will be alone. But does one suffer?
Yup - just observe and say - what he does when being alone?
Edit - if you canât observe - now just close the mobile/computer - come away from people - sit alone - and observe what happens to you - and share that observation.
Our relationship is the only what is. Would you accept this statement?
You be alone and quiet.
Is it? - After 7.30 pm to till we go for sleep - we will be alone and quiet?
Relationship is what is.
Depends what you mean by quiet and what I mean by it. But I cannot quite follow what your question is? If you find freedom in that nothingness there is no suffering. So is there any further question?
My quietness - is not seeking pleasure. What do you mean by quietness and say whether that quietness continues/breaks.
Exactly. There is ânothingnessâ and from there whole circus starts.
If we seriously observe this ânothingnessâ and see everything the whole humanity does - then in this very âobservationâ there is âfreedomâ and âcompassionâ.
If you couldnât observe - close the phone - say your wife/children to not disturb for an hour or two - and just observe everything happens.