Sufferings

Above Charley mentioned 6 angels, and it occurred that this is best clarified. They were solid looking human beings, looking just like regular folks. It is only afterwards that Charley understood that they indeed angels, that is, after Charley closed her mouth, it was agape.

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Then what is pain? Does it ever exist right at this moment? Or is it possible only ever to see it either in retrospect or in anticipation?

If that is so, psychological pain is a memory or an image, it has no existence ‘now’.

See it? What do you mean by seeing ‘pain’?

Sorry sir. It’s the fact. If people don’t give comfort to person who suffers a lot, suicide happens as they couldn’t handle the sufferings on their own and that’s what I perceive in this world. Don’t you??

Personally, I don’t seek such comfort, but it’s a fact in humanity of ‘stress’ and sufferings. Few understands “there is no one around” and become fully energetic and face it. But many, couldn’t handle on their own and struggle a lot and finally they say “I Quit”.

You see the memory of it in the past or see the prospect of it in the future. What do you mean by pain? Not the pain of a toothache, but any form of psychological pain. What is the essence of the pain? Not the theoretical, but the actual essence of the pain?

This would be of interest to one who is interested in self knowledge e.g. am I suffering because I lost someone who I was dependent upon for company, companionship etc and now I will face the future alone (self pity) or am I suffering because the other’s life has ended, too soon perhaps and they will have lost the opportunity of being alive? Or a mixture of emotions, images…

kannagi,

I liked your posts very much, and don’t forget that K used many examples to open up subjects to discuss; he would say, I lost my son, my wife, my husband, etc., when he had no son, wife, husband, etc…

I recall one incident where someone had mutilated himself because of his desires, and K offered him his hand and both sat in silence.

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Post #25:

Kannagi,

I understand what you say about not seeking such comfort. Yes, “there is no one around” to turn to but there is still a passion to understand the mystery of life. And there is great beauty as well as great horror. And one can’t help but be sensitive to the suffering of those in distress.

Compassion can only be spontaneous. If it is not spontaneous, effortless, it is not compassion, as I see it. Platitudes and empty, dutiful or forced words and actions are incapable of giving comfort. So what can one do about this fact? (At least it is a fact to me.)

Awareness reveals that mere conformity to any kind of an ideal is thought. Awareness is not thought but we have been educated to believe that it is the intellect which guides everything we do. Awareness is seen as an incidental quality that can be exploited (or not) by the intellect for its own ends. And compassion is not considered to be essential for earning a living, taking care of a family, fulfilling one’s ambitions, and so on. So awareness and compassion are seen as things which can be used by the intellect if it wants to, and not used if the intellect doesn’t consider it necessary…

And indeed, the intellect IS essential. But without awareness, man is actually incomplete. And thought cannot make him complete. Without awareness, there can be no flowering of understanding, compassion, affection, relationship and sensitivity, as I see it.

Awareness reveals the full significance of thought’s activities and the interconnectedness between the inner and outer realities. Then man is not governed by thought alone and he is free to explore and discover. Awareness — not thought ---- liberates sensitivity, and sensitivity releases compassion, as I see it.

Compassion is as natural as hunger, thirst, the drive to procreate, curiosity, beauty, laughter, passion, and so on. Compassion is not something that thought (I/you/we) came up with. We have been endowed with compassion by the unknowable creator. Isn’t psychological thought — i.e. the self, the psyche — the thing which clouds understanding and prevents sensitivity and compassion?

Of course it is distressing to witness indifference and utter lack of compassion — as well as the ravages of war, corruption, greed, hunger, poverty, and so on. But condemnation does not change these things in the least, does it. One can believe that one is kind and compassionate and still be blind and unaware. I have seen it in myself. One can stop feeling sorry for oneself, one can stop being angry, greedy, corrupt, deceitful, selfish, arrogant. But all this is not done through effort or prayer or any kind of method. It requires observation of all that is within, not just outwardly. That is awareness.

I do realize that there are gaps and mistakes in what I say but there it is, warts and all.

(I don’t mind if you call me sir but I thought you might like to know that I am female.)

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Is there any emotion that does not have self-pity at its root? I am talking not just about the painful emotions of anger, jealousy and grief, but all the emotional reactions we go through.

Huguette,

Not everyone is sensitive. Insensitivity is more often the case, as the tendency towards insensitivity is caused by childhood abuse - conditioning, and the repetitive nature of the conditioning. Huguette, you are fortunate that you are sensitive. Charley was also sensitive. which later caused the damaged parents to withhold the facts when other relatives were sick and dying in the hospital, and Charley was only told after their deaths. The reason for this was because the the parents didn’t want Charley’s natural sensitivity to disturb everyone else !! Charley was always astonished at funerals at the degree to which all family members behaved as if this was just a social event, where much gossip and levity occurred. As an aside, it is this very insensitivity that causes someone to ask: “Why?”. Fortunately, the mother did not want Charley to be like her or the father, and allowed Charley’s sensitivity to develop and bloom without interference, which caused Charley to have very little common ground with both parents, and so Charley began in adolescence to realize that, asap, Charley had to move out and be independent and self-sufficient!!

Actually, intelligence is essential, not intellect. It is intellect which brings about the degeneration that one has observed in so many. One lives where many choose to retire. So, there are loads of seniors here, many of whom have become nothing but zombies.

It is intelligence which moves one to observation. It is seeing what is false that awakens intelligence (i.e. seeing “what is” happening outside of oneself).

Intellect is a result of conditioning !!

Originally, Charley was not endowed with compassion at all, as no one showed Charley this compassion in childhood - again, conditioning. So, this statement is entirely false, because this conclusion bars learning later on “what is” true. As usual, conclusions prevent discovering what it means to learn. Charley discovered compassion later on in life, and also understood then, via intelligence, that the idealism layer of consciousness was the source that would provoke opportunities to discover compassion later on in life. The whole idea of a creator is also entirely false. Charley evolved from a newt, which moved out of the mud, and breathed air for the first time, evolving into a mammal. Charley observed this within. Hence, what followed was the natural awakening of what is called the kundalini, which Charley refers fondly to as “the snake”. Grins.

The distress that anyone might feel shows that more work is needed, that there is still stuff within requiring one’s attention. If anything, Charley feels “dispassionate indifference” to the insanity (one of the many treasures resulting from insight). Otherwise, Charley would be unable to continue reading posts on this site.

That is absolutely true. Indeed !!

Most excellent, and honest.

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My dear Charley,
Clearly, not everyone is sensitive. Sensitivity is related to awareness, as I see it. If one IS sensitive, one can’t help it. It is not a choice, an accomplishment or an act of volition. One can be aware, one can mature, one can learn, and sensitivity can be awakened. No?

Intelligence IS essential, breathing is essential, food is essential, security is essential. Intellect is also essential, but it does not have the “rank” of supreme importance that it gives itself. Intellect must realize its limitations in order for intelligence to flower. There is no competition between intelligence and intellect. Intelligence does not compete. Intellect does, as I see it.

We did not create ourselves or the world or the universe. We did not create love, compassion, intelligence and so on. Compassion is there but there are obstacles which can block it. There is a creative force, an intelligence, a source which created the universe. If I happen to be in the middle of the desert and I come upon a little house with a smoking chimney, I cannot conclude that this little house appeared out of nothing. If I am walking in the middle of a vast forest and I come upon a pile of excrement, I know that an animal made it. It did not come from nothing.

To me there is a source of creation, a creator, which is unknowable and beyond our comprehension. It is also the source of compassion, love, intelligence. That is how I see it.

Dearest Huguette,

Charley has read all your posts keenly, from the very beginning that Charley has joined this site, and Charley has noted that you have journeyed deeper!

Prior to meditation, Charley was solidly agnostic… bordering on atheist.
So, it was quite a surprise when that which is most holy touched one’s shoulder. Like omg, there is ( !! ) something else out there besides you and me, everyone else, the planet, nature, this solar system, the stars !! In spite of this happening, Charley has no knowledge whatsoever to conclude or believe that that which is most holy created anything or everything. Please understand, with the greatest respect, that as long as one holds beliefs, that which is most holy will not go near you… and you may very well not be able to see whether or not there is actually something that is most holy out there, even to verify your belief… besides which, “it” doesn’t use words, so there is no way to “know” whether or not it created anything at all. Please be careful as to conclusions.

Perhaps, Charley must go further, and like K … “discover” the source… I dunno, and don’t wonder about it. As once heard in the land of Charley’s birth: Mystère et boule de gomme.

Also, there is something else out there, and it’s real, and it is the epitome of the dark side… And there are people actively associated with this dark side. There is a woman in my building that has actively caused much mischief among certain residents, and the mind/heart has forbidden c. to enter her apt. K was right when he stated something to the effect that great good attracts the dark side. People like that have approached c. (who didn’t even know c) and have said terrible things, to which Charley just moved away. One has even seen something in the face of someone that very much looked exactly like Bilbo when he initially refused to give Frodo the ring (in “Lord of the Rings”), and uttered “my precious”…The physicists and cosmologists are all excited by their recent discovery… they have even given it a name, they call it “dark matter”.

As well, there is energy all around us, which is completely different than the energy of “ego”; it is softer, gentler, moves very slowly (unlike “that which is most holy”, which moves like light) and exists independently of that which is most holy.

So, you ask “what do you mean by ‘pain’, what is the actual essence of psychological pain”, Right??

It’s the same as how the question about ‘fear’ you raised in another thread. Do you want me to get to the root of ‘pain’? Then, we shall get to the root of ‘fear’ too… Both are emotions, and we shall “go to the actual essence of both”, if you want to.

Huguette, I can clearly understand what you say.

But, what about a common person comes to this forum and reads your post? He/She will create an idea about “Awareness, Compassion, etc…” from reading the description you made, and will make it as a goal and try to adhere to it by “making efforts in Stopping thoughts”, as you said “psychological thoughts” are blocks.

So, what shall we do about that. Don’t speak about us (who are cursed to penetrate things deeper) but from the view point of whole humanity. What shall we do about the inhumane activities happening in the world? If we describe about “Compassion,etc…”, will they understand it from the words communicated or make it an ideal??

The thing I’m concerned is not about ‘me’ but the happenings in whole humanity. What shall we do about that?

As they couldn’t understand, so shall we have to wait for them to let them ‘understand’? Religions say, “Oh. Only good karma will teach them”, “Oh. It’s all because of their bad karma, they couldn’t understand”, “Oh. They have to wait for God’s Grace”, “Oh. You too have come to understand this all from the Grace of God. If God didn’t shown pity on you, you wouldn’t have understood all these”, and many and many…

So, like them say, we have to wait until people themself experience all on their own, and we just remain silent to them and not utter any words, as all words become an ‘ideal’ to them??

And so I ask, “A person come to you with all sufferings and couldn’t handle it. What you do??. Preach him about ‘Awareness, Compassion,Psychological thoughts,etc…’ because it is compassion flows from you”??. But, he makes only an ideal out of your sayings. He didn’t understood and observe it clearly, and make your words as a new belief. So, what to do with that??

Also what to do with inhumane activities?? Just remain outside from it and watch it as a movie/play, and wait them to let themvelses understand from their experience??

Yes. That’s what we can do. Because all words, can be a reality/clear observation for me, but it is only an ‘ideal/belief’ for another one who hears those words. So, there is no way left but just to remain silent and wait, and if anyone couldn’t handle much sufferings, to reach out a hand to him with a hug, and if he/she is very much serious to really observe, and only then a dialogue with him/her is possible.

What do you say??

And, as you say about ‘Mystery’, now you take a big leap and I think Charley too. We shall discuss about that. But, what is the outcome from that discussion to whole humanity??

Say, from our dialogue/inquiry, we might found the mystery behind the world. Will it change anything in this world?? Even scientists will reject your answer for the mystery, because it is not a valid physical proof. So, whatever the outcome as the answer for the mystery, of brings indeed a huge unknown experience and satisfies one’s quest, and remain “Blissful or peaceful” from such knowledge/experience. That’s all it can do. But, to humanity, it again creates another ‘belief/ideal’ and seek it, like already there are many…

So, shall we go into solving the mystery?? What do you think Charley??

Dear kannagi,

Firstly, Charley doesn’t think, one only uses intelligence to see in a glance, to read between the lines. It is very difficult to see from any post actually published on here, whether or not there has been the seeing of the falsehoods which society stands for. The moment they put up a post which is a conclusion, a false conclusion at that, it is clearly understood that this has only been derived through the use of thought (intellect) and not intelligence, and that they have blocked themselves. Not only that… but there are many gullible people in the world who are easily influenced by the existence of such false conclusions, and therefore without realizing this they are causing damage. Until there has been seeing of the falsehoods which society has propagated, intelligence remains dormant. So, one is highly skeptical of anyone who uses words like awareness, compassion, intelligence, even passion - mainly passion, because were there a real passion, it would be to discover truth, they would then negate thought, because thought prevents the seeing of truth. PERIOD. FULL STOP. So, Charley says emphatically that all knowledge is limited, because it derives from thought. The only occasion to use thought is to develop a skill so as to earn a living. Dialogue is not a skill. And until a person realizes and sees that, the horrors which one sees happening in the world will continue and worsen. Truth can never be seen through thoughts or discussions. One says this because until that is done, intelligence will not awaken.

And so, one understands that any emphasis on any fragment turns this fragment into a neurosis - maintaining the beliefs which they choose to keep, instead of dropping them and putting them aside. The problem is that they are unaware that their understanding is only intellectual (from the activities of their brain, and not the mind) and that they are have become unaware that this is not intelligence in operation but only intellect.(because they have blocked themselves - and the danger and risk is that they can become permanently blocked). The only occasion to use thought is to develop a skill so as to earn a living. Dialogue is not a skill. And until a person realizes and sees that, the horrors which one sees happening in the world will continue and worsen. Truth can never be seen through thoughts or discussions. And one says that one must be careful to decide upon what to do in life, so as not to cause damage to others, directly or indirectly.

Kannagi, it is only insight which releases one from the distortions of thought, the conclusions and speculation, and frees oneself. By the way, speculation and using hypothetical situations are not the same, easily understood and seen by intelligence. And one of the side effects of insight is that it has a huge impact on anyone near a person when there is the seeing of the false as the false and the true as the true, and of course, the truth of the false, as one mentioned in one’s profile.

There are thousands and thousands of false prophets online and elsewhere. So, whatever you do online, don’t believe anyone, including Charley. FIND OUT FOR YOURSEF!!

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Well said Charley. Find out myself. And through dialogues truth can never be seen.

So, say, Charley found truth and seen all horrible things and understood all, and stop adding horrible things in society, and clearly says “Find out yourself”.

Now, Viswa, turns inside and starts to find. Until the finding, there are many beliefs and ideas and pains and fear, arise in him in finding out. So, until that time, he may stop adding things but couldn’t find truth. It’s fine.

But, what about whole humanity?? What Charlie do to them? What does mean being responsible?? Why Charlie, after clearly knows through dialogues truth cannot be known, is still here?? What shall Charlie do until the whole humanity understand themselves by finding on their own?? Watch them suffer and learn themself by stepping aside from horror, like the bad vibration from your apartment?? Or we have to try to clean it up by making them show what they are doing, and if they are not willing to hear, and then step aside, and that is compassion??

I don’t know and I’m blank about it. What do Charlie thinks about it?? Why Charlie is here now?? Is Charley watching all horrible but don’t know what to do??

Viswa is in that situation and Viswa don’t know what to do and assumes that “People can find it only by going through sufferings and let them go through it and I just stand aside and watch it, but if one couldn’t handle the sufferings, like the schizophrenic patients and many other stress and mental issues, to hug them and give comfort to them, and nothing can be done to stop war/inhumane activities. Maybe by sharing bliss/Love?? Maybe by siddhi powers??” Viswa don’t know and literally confused and very eager to know what Charley does in this situation by being here.

Dear Viswa,

Charley can only post some posts here. One would require quite a few others and perhaps there could be a significant change which might occur. However, from what one has seen, in news reports, and even here, with people in Canada in the country’s capital, Ottawa, and even where Charley lives, there are truckers demanding that all mandates re: Covid-19 end. However, it is only the provinces - separately - who are responsible for imposing mandates, not the federal government. What is worse is that there are obviously Americans, and even pro-Trump protestors (the fringe minority) who have insinuated themselves into the protest - there are even those waving Nazi flags !! They have caused damage !, physical and psychological. This is highly unusual here in Canada. There is undoubtedly a certain sector of the population here that is beginning to behave exactly like those protestors in the States on Jan. 6. There have been arrests. They value freedom, the freedom to behave exactly as they desire. This is nothing but licentiousness, an act of personal will.

Putin talks just like Hitler, before Hitler invaded other countries, right! Germany will not interfere because they depend on the gas which they import from Russia, for the majority of their heating. Putin doesn’t want the Ukraine to enter NATO, because that would mean war, as all countries who are in NATO would have to send troops to the front line to literally fight themselves against the Russians. And the last just war was WWII. Since then, there have just been a lot of unjust wars, right? Charley, when much younger, did loads of volunteer work (an hour or two every week or so, adding several pages to one’s CV, making good friends, having fun, and contributing to Charley becoming a good human being), “believing” that might wake up people - one of which was against the armed forces recruitment centre in one city !! THIS CHANGED NOTHING !!

So, what can Charley do?.. nothing. One has seen a trend to the upcoming disaster increasing worldwide. Personally, one understands that this will have to run its course. Millions are going to die. So, the only thing one can do is to do the work on oneself, going deeper and deeper, right? It will take several hundred years for people to realize all the damage they have done in having “created” and are responsible for this disaster.

The word “responsible” only means “able” to “respond”… that’s all. So, one can tell and see, quite easily, that those who ignore/dismiss when Charley says, “this is a conclusion”, even a false conclusion, or when C. says, “this is speculation”, and that too is ignored, then you see who is responsible and who isn’t, right? Such behaviour comes from generations of incorrect behaviour, incorrect action, and what has happened is that such people have become exactly like their abusive parents/guardians. So, always back to the conditioning. The reason for which irresponsible conditioning exists is to give one an opportunity to, as they say in French, “combler le déficit”. And, the only way to do that is to realize that one is irresponsible, and to delve into that - an example. The same can be said for non-violent behaviour, one is to see and understand the violence within. Arrogance must be seen for what it is as well, the lack of humility. Hence, the value of negative thinking. So it is the person who doesn’t talk about what it means to be “responsible”, but to see what is “irresponsible” in one’s approach to life, in one’s verbal exchanges, etc.

There is the seeing of that because even science has confirmed that those who suffer from “attention deficit syndrome”, or ADHD, etc. can’t begin to be healed until they admit that they have that problem, right? And, it is only after they work on that problem that so many have an opportunity to become excellent teachers, right?

You have already moved away by bringing in fear. Forget fear for the moment. What is the essence of pain?

“The most holy” loses its conveyed meaning coming from anyone who utters it frequently. Some say it can’t be uttered even once, without contaminating it in some way. Multiple utterances render it ineffectual, meaningless.

Observing the narcissistic love between the two charleys, as evident in their incessant talk about each other, one does question the part of self-glorification and image making. Perhaps it is pertinent to note, speaking or writing about oneself in the third person has no meaning, when it’s clear that the first person is quite alive and well. There is a strong possibility, the first person has inflated to such a colossal degree that, it has splitted itself into parts. Between the image making, the projections, the fragmentation, and the obvious narcissist self-infatuation as indicated in the way the person is enamored with themselves, one is reminded of what K says about conflict. Thus one is reminded of the phrase, “all for naught”.