Sufferings

Dear Viswa,

Charley can only post some posts here. One would require quite a few others and perhaps there could be a significant change which might occur. However, from what one has seen, in news reports, and even here, with people in Canada in the country’s capital, Ottawa, and even where Charley lives, there are truckers demanding that all mandates re: Covid-19 end. However, it is only the provinces - separately - who are responsible for imposing mandates, not the federal government. What is worse is that there are obviously Americans, and even pro-Trump protestors (the fringe minority) who have insinuated themselves into the protest - there are even those waving Nazi flags !! They have caused damage !, physical and psychological. This is highly unusual here in Canada. There is undoubtedly a certain sector of the population here that is beginning to behave exactly like those protestors in the States on Jan. 6. There have been arrests. They value freedom, the freedom to behave exactly as they desire. This is nothing but licentiousness, an act of personal will.

Putin talks just like Hitler, before Hitler invaded other countries, right! Germany will not interfere because they depend on the gas which they import from Russia, for the majority of their heating. Putin doesn’t want the Ukraine to enter NATO, because that would mean war, as all countries who are in NATO would have to send troops to the front line to literally fight themselves against the Russians. And the last just war was WWII. Since then, there have just been a lot of unjust wars, right? Charley, when much younger, did loads of volunteer work (an hour or two every week or so, adding several pages to one’s CV, making good friends, having fun, and contributing to Charley becoming a good human being), “believing” that might wake up people - one of which was against the armed forces recruitment centre in one city !! THIS CHANGED NOTHING !!

So, what can Charley do?.. nothing. One has seen a trend to the upcoming disaster increasing worldwide. Personally, one understands that this will have to run its course. Millions are going to die. So, the only thing one can do is to do the work on oneself, going deeper and deeper, right? It will take several hundred years for people to realize all the damage they have done in having “created” and are responsible for this disaster.

The word “responsible” only means “able” to “respond”… that’s all. So, one can tell and see, quite easily, that those who ignore/dismiss when Charley says, “this is a conclusion”, even a false conclusion, or when C. says, “this is speculation”, and that too is ignored, then you see who is responsible and who isn’t, right? Such behaviour comes from generations of incorrect behaviour, incorrect action, and what has happened is that such people have become exactly like their abusive parents/guardians. So, always back to the conditioning. The reason for which irresponsible conditioning exists is to give one an opportunity to, as they say in French, “combler le déficit”. And, the only way to do that is to realize that one is irresponsible, and to delve into that - an example. The same can be said for non-violent behaviour, one is to see and understand the violence within. Arrogance must be seen for what it is as well, the lack of humility. Hence, the value of negative thinking. So it is the person who doesn’t talk about what it means to be “responsible”, but to see what is “irresponsible” in one’s approach to life, in one’s verbal exchanges, etc.

There is the seeing of that because even science has confirmed that those who suffer from “attention deficit syndrome”, or ADHD, etc. can’t begin to be healed until they admit that they have that problem, right? And, it is only after they work on that problem that so many have an opportunity to become excellent teachers, right?

You have already moved away by bringing in fear. Forget fear for the moment. What is the essence of pain?

“The most holy” loses its conveyed meaning coming from anyone who utters it frequently. Some say it can’t be uttered even once, without contaminating it in some way. Multiple utterances render it ineffectual, meaningless.

Observing the narcissistic love between the two charleys, as evident in their incessant talk about each other, one does question the part of self-glorification and image making. Perhaps it is pertinent to note, speaking or writing about oneself in the third person has no meaning, when it’s clear that the first person is quite alive and well. There is a strong possibility, the first person has inflated to such a colossal degree that, it has splitted itself into parts. Between the image making, the projections, the fragmentation, and the obvious narcissist self-infatuation as indicated in the way the person is enamored with themselves, one is reminded of what K says about conflict. Thus one is reminded of the phrase, “all for naught”.

Ouch!

And a good day to you dear fellow.
It is always good to consider why we pick the fights we do - and please be careful of the line between attacking an argument and picking on the person (remember we all have soft marshmallow centers and some of us have been badly traumatised already)

mac,

Charley doesn’t mind. Everyone (and one does mean everyone) who has ever tried to attack Charley (verbally) or otherwise has come to a really bad end, and even those who saw or in some way enabled… and did nothing. This was deliberate btw, eh? (grins); first post, and after Charley…

There are laws, like in:

  • Thermodynamics: For every action there is and equal and opposite reaction… Well, apart from correct/apart action… which has no opposite reaction.

expressed otherwise as:

  • What goes around comes around.

or when people say:

  • Karma is a b****

Woke up from a wonderful sleep, full of energy, and as usual, woke up meditating… Charley is in love with life…

:face_with_monocle: :astonished: :scream:

In that case I take back everything I said that Karma might have construed as an attack on the being known as Charley (scary and dangerous times we live in!) :innocent:

Mac,

K was verbally attacked, and viciously attacked by his teacher when he was a child, eh?

I don’t know what attack you are referring to?
It was certainly a pretty singular childhood

I was interested in getting to the ‘essence/root’ of anything with you Paul. But, when I read the below posts,

I see it’s an one-way dialogue with Paul Dimmock, and other person’s view are always thrown away to trash by Paul Dimmock, and only ‘his views/questions’ matters a lot. If someone brings their own view, Paul Dimmock is not ready to look into it, so it’s been very difficult to have a dialogue. When Paul Dimmock brings his views, he says “It’s already there”. If someone bring their view, he says “Don’t bring experience. You don’t have same question,so it is rather difficult to know how to proceed”, and

See? You want other persons to be in ‘your’ planet, and not ready to see other person’s views or anything, and only concerned about ‘answers’.

I don’t know if he seen this in his life ever, and only concerned about ‘answers,answers,answers - in a same stroke in questions,questions,questions’ of an idea he made up.

I’m sorry. All my interest gone.

But, if he seen it and understands how much he ignores all other people’s views, then Viswa is the first person to be happy, and ready to have a dialogue with whatever question/idea/anything Paul brings up.

Thank you.

Take care. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’m sorry. I’m not good at language, so couldn’t perceive who attacks you in dialogues here. But, it’s just people’s beliefs/opinions. Why to get angry on them? They are ignorant. What to do?
Or
I am attacking?? I don’t know and please let me know, and if, I’m sorry. I’m just blank now, and helpless towards people/inhumane acts, and so very much interested to learn what Charley does in those situations and dialogues here.

And, you well said. Nothing can be done. Maybe nearby people might grasp the good vibration, if we are in it, and that’s the only thing we can do, and let them get to know/find out themselves, that’s what it seems. Great to learn it from you.

Yes… That’s what I’m upto…

Thank you Charley. :relaxed:

Hi Kannagi,

G’morning, You are sweet, the above had nothing to do with you. Charley doesn’t get angry :grinning:. You are very kind to everyone. Actually, when younger, Charley observed inhumane attacks, Charley moved to “help”. Now that Charley is a senior, Charley moves away. In general, Charley can sense bad things in any area, and moves away beforehand. Lots of siddhis. Actually, one is not surprised by such behaviour… Charley isn’t surprised by much. Enjoy your dialogues.

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Again, you are moving away. What is the essence of pain? Your own psychological pain - no-one else’s - what is at the core of it?

@crina

Hi Carina. Sorry. I couldn’t reply there in Wednesday dialogues, as I’m not a member there from this account, and so I’m replying here.

“Thoughts can’t survive alone, it needs it’s opposite”.

This thing, is a very very profound one, and I share my observation here, what I got learned from all these years. It might be like an idea/answer, but feel free to check it out without labeling anything about it.

“THOUGHTS IS EVERYTHING”.

Thoughts is Love. Thoughts is Intelligence. Thoughts is Choiceless Awareness. Thoughts is Observation. Thoughts is the life force. All the whole world is a form of thought. All the objects seen is thoughts. All the organs, an effect of thoughts. All emotions, pain-pleasure-sufferings-Bliss, is all thoughts.

First, there was Thoughts as very blissful, some call it love/intelligence/God/anything. But, that is also Thoughts, the first thought to take it. And as you said, “Thoughts can’t survive alone and creates opposites of ‘it’s contents already there’”.

Thoughts is scriptures, Thoughts is religions, Thoughts is Science, Thoughts is Philosophy, Thoughts is Vedanta, Thoughts is Gita, Thoughts is Bible, Thoughts is everything one ever knows/experiences/feels.

Even, all the questions/observations arises about anything (including about thoughts), is also Thoughts.

If thoughts end, nothing remains as world or any other. K say “Psychological thought is danger”. But, thoughts cannot be differentiated as “Intelligence” and “psychological thought”. Thought is ‘what-is’…Nothing ever in this world and other, can be experienced in the absence of ‘thoughts’.

Thoughts is “AUM”…Thoughts is five sense-organs… Thoughts is human beings… Thoughts is living beings… Thoughts is nature… Thoughts is positive-Negative… Thoughts is Duality… Thoughts is Observer and the Observed…Thoughts is Materials… Thoughts is Beauty… Thoughts is Destruction…Thoughts is Sun and Moon… Thoughts is Planets…Thoughts is Stars… Thoughts is Blackhole… Thoughts is ‘ego’… Thoughts is ‘Cosmic-Cobsciousness’…Thoughts is psych and physic and prana and mind and intellect and intelligence and all emotions…

Thoughts is the origin, movement and end…

One, who understands all these ‘by being thoughts’ - ‘through thoughts’ - ‘as thoughts’ , go - silence - beyond thoughts…PERIOD…

:smile:

Nothing survives alone

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re: Kannagi’s post #35

Kannagi,

You are asking what shall we do about the suffering of others. There’s no textbook answer for such a thing. As you yourself have said in your own way, if it is in our heart to do something, we act. It may be a hand on someone’s shoulder, a hug, a smile, a look, a word, an invitation to talk, or sitting quietly with them in awareness. There is surely no controversy in that, no argument.

You also asked what we can do about a person who comes to this forum and turns awareness, compassion, etc. into a goal, who makes efforts to stop thought. If that person also is interested in understanding himself or herself, there is a shared interest and we naturally gravitate to looking into it together. We both are learning. As I see it, there is nothing I can do to “make” another person understand something, just as there is nothing anyone can do to MAKE me understand. The desire to do something is also effort, isn’t it. Not the effort to stop our own thoughts, but the effort to influence others. In talking with others - listening and observing - we also learn about ourselves. But it is awareness which is the teacher, not me or you.

So one can’t willfully “do something” about the confusion in the whole of humanity. Each one of us carries a seed within. If one is violent, one sows violence. If one is angry or afraid, one sows anger or fear. If one is peaceful, one sows peace. If I carry the seed of confusion, all my efforts only spread more confusion. So what can I do about my own confusion?

As for the mystery of life, to me, it is unsolvable. Being aware of the mystery does not “satisfy one’s quest”, as you put it, or bring peace or bliss. It is simply so.

To me, there is a spontaneous, unfettered, vital energy pulling us towards understanding. Like all of us, I was born, “given” life. That’s part of the mystery. One can only live in accordance with one’s understanding, flaws and shortcomings in this moment.

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kannagi,

The above is an from a dialogue group - crina’s discovery.

However,

The above outlines the problem with intellectual dialogue. It can lead to false conclusions, of which the above only emphasizes the false ideas that came from the ancient Greeks. This is where it comes from:

“Aristotle apparently, according to him, has said, “Opposite must exist; otherwise ‘what is’ is non-existent.” Listen to it carefully, please. The opposite must exist otherwise ‘what is’ is non-existent. I am attached, and the opposite is detachment, and if there is no opposite there is no attachment. I am afraid even Aristotle can be mistaken!”
K, Saanen, 2nd Public Dialogue, 1 Aug. 1974

The mistake is to believe that they are just opposite thoughts of the same coin. So, in believing falsely that since thought invented opposites one can imagine (use thoughts some more) to conclude falsely that neither exist.

There are opposites in the world of reality: tall/sort, man/woman, day/night, etc., right?

But, this added to the contribution of the Greeks led people to believe in psychological opposites as well, such as violence and non-violence. It is a fact that there is violence in many people. Violence is the fact. However, non-violence is only an idea about the fact of violence. When one concludes that both are thoughts, and that in bringing them together, they cancel each other out is entirely false. One cannot cancel violence within with another thought. One cannot solve the pain of another, the suffering of another by the thought of wishing it away, by any opposite thought. The only way to end violence in oneself is the seeing of violence within and understanding it. No one has ever cancelled out violence by bringing peace close to violence, by imagining both of them as opposite thoughts. That is just an intellectual trick of the mind.

Peace within is brought about through insight alone as a separate insight, as an aftereffect of negating the entire house that held the “self” together.

“Goodness” does not exist within the self. It is not the opposite of “bad”. It is wilfulness that precipitates bad behaviour (abuse), it comes from the self, from the conditioning. This is the danger of seeing everything in terms of thought, and in terms of opposites, all created by thought. No human being created nature. Nature existed long before any human walked on this planet. So, one can easily understand that nature was never created by thought. Hence, nature is not thought.

“If good is born out of bad then the good contains the bad.”
K, The Flame of Attention, Ch. 4, 2nd Public Talk at Madras, 27 Dec. 1981

It is in only in the seeing of conditioning which originally caused the mischief which will leads to the end of any issue. Bad behaviour (abuse) does not necessarily turn over on a theoretical opposite side to reveal goodness. Afterwards, goodness may only come to life within through correct behaviour/right action.

…All of this to say that thought nor any amount of clever play of words cannot end suffering.

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What does “sufferings” mean to you? Let’s not play games with pain and sufferings.

If I may give my conditioned answer : suffering is what we do in order to provoke the actions that might lead to further progress and security. it is what we call the unpleasant feeling accompanying fear and desire.

If I suffer because I compare myself with somebody who has more money or is more intelligent , that kind of suffering is created by thought. If I am a Christian I believe that jesses suffered for all Christians. To macdougdoug as he says suffering is a form of effort. So suffering has different meanings. There is also physical suffering of a toothache and so on.

I’d say more like what might provoke an effort, or condition a reaction.

Suffering is basically the self in movement. It exists in various forms and degrees within many sentient creatures - instilled by evolution because its a highly succesful mechanism.
Also it feels really scary and bad.

Thats sensation - electrical impulses to the brain - for there to be suffering, fear needs to be involved.

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