It is unnatural. Digestive system is not unnatural.
Choice, thought, thinker is unnatural. Your heart or digestive system has nothing to do with choice.
I guess each one has to find by direct experience what is the state of mind without choice, that is free, that has space. I say there is no thinker, you say there is a thinker. I guess each has to find directly.
Thought is a material process in the brain and probably all animals think to some degree.
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Will is an illusion.
Yes. We have to find it out for oirselves. But what happens in the meantime?
Should we make statemets like f.i. the will is an illusion? And if one has find this out for him or herself is there a need to re-inforce it by making this statement? Will it not become a mere intellectual concept? Isn’t this exacktly what the “me” , the thinking wants us to do? And by doing it, strengthen it?
Giving it its own vitality?
If I say something and you resist that, if you say something and I resist that, there can be no coming together in sharing. The resistance is will as illusion. If we speak and listen naturally without resistance as will, there is another state of mind that is easy, natural, without inner conflict
This is your opinion, not K’s teaching. We’re here to examine and understand the teaching.
Thinker is psychological.
There is no thinker. There is only thought.
You can continue to try to use thought to solve fear, sorrow, loneliness, hate, greed, desire, habit. It won’t work.
The brain uses thought for practical purposes, and emotions like “fear, sorrow, loneliness, hate, greed, desire” are impractical and can’t be addressed without examining them when they arise. Each one of these emotions has its own peculiarity and if practical thought doesn’t take them seriously enough to remain with them instead of escaping via beliefs like yours, one never understands them.
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@Adeen what makes you think that I resist to what your saying.
Yes, indeed, I put questions about it.
Isn’t this why we are here?
Do you seriously believe what you are thinking? Isn’t doubt necessary? To doubt oneself. Could be a beginning ,no?
I just came across this in a zen text I happened to be reading :
The Great Question cannot be resolved by the discursive mind. Even what becomes clear through realization is delusion of a kind.
it seemed appropriate. In fact, a powerful insight is usually grasped more tightly.
The point being : no conclusions should be allowed to leave a trace. Philosophers beware the really clever thought. Woomaesters beware the really kooky insight. (unless of course you have a point to make - in which case : hold on til the point is made, then drop it)
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What Is That? Any Idea?
Is that so? Well, that really clears things up…
Wouldn’t “a powerful insight” put an end to gripping?
Question, understanding or inquiry comes from silence, not thought or reaction. If it is reaction of thought it is debate or argument.
I am not interested in play of words but trying to directly explore in daily life and then express what I directly see.
But a forum like this is probably functioning only on thought, intellect. Yes, you are not interested in what I am saying. You have already dismissed it.
In zen buddhism the question is : what is suffering? who is suffering? what is this center that is suffering? what is self?
The Buddha gave the answer in his first sermon after his first mega insight, he said suffering was due to desire. That desire was based on the illusion of self. Self arises from thought and sensation, and is reinforced by karma (aka selfish action)
And the solution was awareness of this whole movement.
So the practise of monks is to see this, via zazen and the bodhisattva vow (aka meditation and compassion)
Maybe, the fact is we are human. The habit is heavy with hundreds of millenia - this is heavier than a 40 ton truck (insight is nothing against a 40 ton truck - this is why we must remind ourselves everyday to take care and let go.)
PS. of course reminders are useless if we have no understanding of why we need to let go
If you discover awareness which is not thought, but silent passive awareness, the entire thing is over. Mind is not functioning as thinker but awareness which is not thought. You will discover awareness is not thought. Most of society operates in thought and is unaware, society, media is based on words. Words are not real. Religions, ideologies, countries fight over words. Awareness has nothing to do with that but silence
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Awareness doesn’t “mind what happens”.
Awareness is fundamental. All living things are aware. Humans know that “awareness is not thought”.
Most of society operates in thought and is unaware, society, media is based on words. Words are not real. Religions, ideologies, countries fight over words.
Words are real. They represent what awareness reveals. How we use words reveals how we interpret awareness according to our beliefs, desires, fears, etc. It is your belief that words are not real, that most of society is unaware, and religions, ideologies, countries fight over words, when obviously they fight over power and influence.
Are you aware of your beliefs?
If the ‘you’ as an entity apart is dropped the question is ‘are the contents of consciousness aware of themselves’? Does ‘awareness’ judge or is it as K suggests: a “caring” about whatever is there?
Thought ‘believes’ it is ‘aware’ in the same way that I (me-ness) think that I am ‘real’ and aware. Awareness is neither thought nor I (me-ness).