One forum poster recently mentioned listening to Krishnamurti during sleep. No identity, self, I, me or mine is present in deep, non-dream sleep to interfere with K’s teaching. Has anyone else done this? Is anyone willing to try this and report back? Here’s some of the latest research, “Can information that is processed during sleep influence awake behavior? Recent research demonstrates that learning during sleep is possible, but that sleep-learning invariably produces memory traces that are consciously inaccessible in the awake state. Thus, sleep-learning can likely exert implicit, but not explicit, influences on awake behavior.” Trends in Cognitive Sciences.
For this to lead to freedom from the self, it would seem to imply 2 things :
1)That K’s words have some transformative power. The concepts themselves, or some magical power from the speaker, can affect the world around it - absent subjective reactions.
We are not saying that words have no effect - they obviously do, but these are usually subjective reactions due to our particular conditioning (aka the self)
2)That freedom from the self can be achieved by avoiding the self. What we are implying is that we can somehow trick ourselves into behaving properly, without ever having to deal with the self. That the concepts integrated whilst asleep will do the work for us.
Its like a pill that we take whilst asleep. Does this mean we could play K discourses to our annoying neighbour, and change them into a Buddha without them ever knowing?
I really don’t know what transformative means. Would it be the same as awakening a new perspective?
Honestly, I’m not seeking freedom from the self. I am that I am.
If we are the world…who is doing the annoying?
The main thing to see in all the confusion about change is that there is a difference between a smoker, for example, deciding to use a pipe instead of cigarettes because reasons (eg.makes them look cooler at their philosophy club) - or changing from Malboros to rolling tobacco; and what would be considered “real” transformation, ie. having a sudden realisation about addiction, health, etc and giving up being a smoker.
Just to be pedantic : even if I was seeking freedom from the self, I would still be what I am.
But I think it might be revealing to look into your statement. For starters, if asked, I would say that the whole point of the K discourse is the liberation of human potential (or cessation of harm) which is achieved when we are liberated from the exigent delusion of self. This goal is sometimes called : Freedom from the known (or ending of sorrow)
How do you differ from this perspective? What is the point in discussing K?
K’s teachings are not “all or nothing” for me. Many points resonate with me and I’ve incorporated them into my life. I see the difficulties around self-centeredness and am careful to watch for it in myself. My self (sense of identity) is located with my body and I will not dissociate from that until death. The self/body is programmed to survive and thrive in this natural world. Other parts of the teachings I’ve just postponed for a while, and some I will ignore altogether. I am a creature living with time. Someday, I may get it or not. Thanks to Krishnamurti I have no authorities. I will find out for myself. Dialogue is a tool for that.
Saanen 1967 10th Talk K: “What you and I can do, to live in this world sanely, healthily, logically, rationally, but also inwardly to have great balance, to live without any conflict, without any hate, without any violence, seems to me to be a question which each of us has to answer for himself.”
The idea that freedom from the self means that the self no longer expresses itself at all, is not one that I share. Just that it has been seen for what it is, and thus we are no longer fooled by the process.
This might be the whole of the problem solved - I don’t know, its hard to tell from here.
Maybe you could expand a bit on this.
Using the example of the cigarette smoker, this could mean that they recognise that their habit is related to their ill health (eg. coughing, fatigue) and thus cut down to 4 cigarettes a day - with the result that each cigarette becomes a dose of pure bliss as the intense nicotine need is satisfied (whereas they hardly noticed each cigarette when they used to smoke 20 a day) and their internal conflict not to smoke more becomes near impossible.
Contrast that with the smoker who understands the whole movement of addiction, that each cigarette sets up the next, makes them who they are, the perpetuation of need - and is able to recoil from each thought of “I want a cigarette” with joy (happy in their relationship of freedom from the thought - rather than having to fear and struggle with the thought).
Realising that K’s teachings are not “all or nothing” could be an expression of wisdom (eg. not hoping for some magical experience - not saying that special states of consciousness don’t exist or are ineffectual) - its hard to tell from here. Maybe you could point out which of K’s teachings you find to be too weird?
This is the question that arises: seeing what is going on in the world, the war, the killing, the hatred, the greed, etc, can the brain / mind free itself from all its “frontiers”? Discover in myself all the ‘walls’ I have surrounded myself with and let them fall? Be unlimited, untethered, empty, silent, free?
I heard JK saying “dreams or the extension of the day”.
I could see the truth of the same in my own experience.
During Sleep many a times, the events of the day are played out, where , the content comes from (or) drawn from, seires of contiguous events or experiences (or) from amalgamation of unrelated events (or) experiences. Once we are aware of this fact that dreams are extension of the day, then the imaginative stories of god coming in dream and dictating to do something, comes to an end.
It is good to observe what happens during sleep
and beyond a point It is normal to see content during the sleep.
Regarding dreams, what I got from K was that they were the brain’s attempt to resolve what we leave unresolved each day. The brain needs rest and dreaming is an extension of the noise of the day?
Does a physically tired body and mind indulge in dreams?
Does a mind which operates always in present, like other species, act learn then act then learn, without scope for intervention of thought, really indulge in dreams?
- Not only unresolved, the content may include aspirational aspects, unfulfilled desires, fears, insecurities, hurts, pleasures. Typically content in the brain.
As one takes a note, brain carries all the contents that is unresolved, unsettled, which are result of actions based on past or based future ( time and thought). So from this content, the extension of day takes place in sleep.