Sex, Lust and Freedom

[Viswa]

@Dominic

Say I see a really beautiful woman or a man and it isn’t enough to just be the observation of that but I am struck by a longing to have someone like that, and I am left with an empty feeling at the fact I do not. That there is no one there for me like that to shower me with their attentions. So there is the feeling of being no one and being nothing without such a one.

We see something beautiful but we don’t stop there as we see trees,mountains,rivers,etc… It’s not because we are empty - it is the presence of ‘image of me’ and so craving/lust is present and ruins our relationship.

It’s because we have a conclusion/image about ourselves - that we have this and not have that,etc…

And also had you seen why this sex/etc… is the highest pleasure one can get?

It’s because only in these act - there is no presence of ‘me’ - as we are driven by the senses i.e. we are fully sensitive.

[presence]

@caviswa_gmail_com

This energy wanting to express itself’ - can you describe about that more?

Sure. Isn’t your thread about sexual energy? The sexual urges? It’s energy expressing itself in biological urges.

[Inquiry]

@Dominic

So might craving relate to feeling empty and an attempt at covering that up, as an equal and opposite reaction?

Craving arises from believing I know what I must have to make me feel whole and complete. But since getting what I crave doesn’t end craving, I’m living a lie until I realize I don’t know what I need to feel whole and complete.

[Viswa]

@presence

Sure. Isn’t your thread about sexual energy? The sexual urges? It’s energy expressing itself in biological urges.

Yes. But this biological urge - is there 24/7 or not? If not - what makes this biological urge arise and dominate the psyche?

[presence]

Are you looking? Let me know what you see.

[Viswa]

So my observation is - Psychologically we are not sensitive all the time - because of our pain,sufferings,anxiety,etc…

This thing like sex/alcohol/drugs/etc… makes us to forget the ‘me’ - so that we may be relieved from all our pain,etc… temporarily - and so there is an biological urge to seek pleasure and it dominates psyche.

But - if we are choice-lessly aware all the time - i.e. fully sensitive 24/7, psychologically there is no pain,etc… - no biological urge arises as,

• we are already fully sensitive and
• we are aware of all the effects of sex/etc… as there is no choice of need /not need.

We cannot be out of our urge for food, but we can be out of/stop our Biological urge for sex/etc… completely and actually - and can have actual relationship with people.

[Peter]

When I see someone attractive, I get a feeling. This feeling, since I can’t do anything about it, because of civility, politeness, or fear, inhibitions, all of that, is unfulfilled. This unfulfillment is what becomes a drive to be satisfied. I will be acting not on the attractiveness, but on a desire to fulfil. So if I can live with the feeling of attractiveness I see with some people, for what ever features of attractiveness, and am aware of this, fully in the present, not suppressing it, not feeling guilty, not corrupting it, not acting out in anyway, then there is a freedom of a living experience.

[Dominic]

@Peter

This unfulfillment is what becomes a drive to be satisfied. I will be acting not on the attractiveness, but on a desire to fulfil.

Agreed, though you have used unfulfillment, whereas I have used emptiness, you satisfied, and I cover up.

@Peter

So if I can live with the feeling of attractiveness I see with some people, for what ever features of attractiveness, and am aware of this, fully in the present, not suppressing it, not feeling guilty, not corrupting it, not acting out in anyway, then there is a freedom of a living experience.

Which means being open to the fullest extent of what is being experienced without seeking to avoid or evade at all, which means being aware ordinarily of the part avoidance and evasion play.

[Viswa]

@Peter @Dominic

Yeah - we don’t have to feel guilty/aviod/evade/etc… - because sex is not something wrong - we are conditioned by the religion,society,etc… as such - and so humans feel guilty.

But what about this feeling (i.e. lust)? - When we see a women - because of this feeling - we can’t have actual relationship with her - this feeling/attraction controls/drive us away from seeing actuality (example, the woman may want to say something - but those feelings blocks us to listen/observe that).

@Peter

This feeling, since I can’t do anything about it, because of civility, politeness, or fear, inhibitions, all of that, is unfulfilled. This unfulfillment is what becomes a drive to be satisfied. I will be acting not on the attractiveness, but on a desire to fulfil

So shall we - without saying ‘i can’t do anything about it’ - and just get into this deeper ?

Why this civility,politeness,fear,inhibitions makes us feel like this?

I say - this civility,etc… have less impact on us - but more impact is made by “desire for new experience and addiction” which is the nature of living beings. This ‘desire for new’(i.e. lust) always coming around when we feel little depressed/alone/suffering, and drives/motivates us to have sex/etc… and this ‘lust’ be a barrier from our ‘responsibilities’ and actual relationship with nature/people/surroundings/etc… This is an experiment on that,

Part 1-5: Your Brain on Porn | Animated Series

[Dominic]

@Viswa

Dopamine and Limbic belong to a conceptual framework, and are thinking and thought, which can be used to convey an understanding, but just as the word is not the thing, so the conceptual framework and its rationalisation is not the direct experiencing the brain is, and so that still leaves the ability for conscious awareness to be the integration of that which is sub-conscious or unconscious in a manner that the conceptual framework does not allow for. If the human brain is just a machine, as distinct from operating mechanically due to habit, then it is doomed.

[Viswa]

@Dominic

Dopamine and Limbic belong to a conceptual framework, and are thinking and thought, which can be used to convey an understanding, but just as the word is not the thing, so the conceptual framework and its rationalisation is not the direct experiencing the brain is, and so that still leaves the ability for conscious awareness to be the integration of that which is sub-conscious or unconscious in a manner that the conceptual framework does not allow for. If the human brain is just a machine, as distinct from operating mechanically due to habit, then it is doomed.

Of course. Of course. I just thought to show - about ‘desire for new experience/etc…’.

Here - had you watched that rat - after injecting dopamine - had not moved anywhere for anything? This is the state of ‘meditation’ - it’s not living with thoughts - but not run for anything in the world - and you can see the smile on that rat face - when it eats food - this is the ‘happiness/blissfulness’.

I not ask to inject dopamine into oneself - but thought to show that we ‘can’ live without any ‘desire for sex/etc…’ (i.e. lust) even a woman/man walk before us - and that desire-less/lust-less state is ‘meditation’.

And i also say that - if ‘dopamine’ ‘limbic’ are just words - then ‘conscious/sub-c./un-c.’ are also words and conceptual framework - as these all words and framework are introduced by scientists/psychologists.

I also say that - We can be aware of everything - only when we integrate all and see as a whole - i.e.science and psychology as a whole. (Even K did many meetings with many scientists - to learn about brains,neurons,etc…)

Recently neurologists have found a neuron which they think it should be present only in humans - which they name it as 'Rose-hip neuron’which is an inhibitory neuron (an inhibitory neuron acts as a break from sight and hearing reaching brain - i.e. when we see a tree - there is only seeing - no excitatory neurons act to bring back memories/past/thoughts/etc…) - and they think this ‘rose-hip neuron’ may reveal many human psychic disorders,etc…

[Peter]

There is an immediate feeling and this is the action. The depth of this feeling is the depth of the experience. This is different to acting it out, to reaction. There is an awareness in the feeling and this immediate awareness shows all those other urges, lust, desire, etc, and these can be immediately seen for what they are, what they mean, intelligently. There doesn’t need to be an analytical awareness.

[Viswa]

@Peter

There doesn’t need to be an analytical awareness.

Yes.

@Peter

There is an immediate feeling and this is the action. The depth of this feeling is the depth of the experience. This is different to acting it out, to reaction. There is an awareness in the feeling and this immediate awareness shows all those other urges, lust, desire, etc, and these can be immediately seen for what they are, what they mean, intelligently

Yes. So in this very ‘seeing’ - we are aware of everything.

We ‘see’ that - these feelings arise - only because of these ‘deep desires for new’ and we can see that - these deep desires arise only because of ‘ignorance’ which is - “only five elements (i.e. air,water,fire,earth and space) are present in different permutations and combinations and nothing more ‘physically’ in this universe”. Everything we sense - are these five elements. These deep desires - arise as feelings(like lust) - drag us to these elements ‘physically’ and away from the beauty of relationship with everything ‘psychologically’.

If we are very serious of our relationship with everything then - in this very ‘observation’ - there is choice-less awareness of everything.

[Dominic]

@Viswa

Here - had you watched that rat - after injecting dopamine - had not moved anywhere for anything? This is the state of ‘meditation’ - it’s not living with thoughts - but not run for anything in the world - and you can see the smile on that rat face - when it eats food - this is the ‘happiness/blissfulness’.

Well that is an artificially contrived circumstance effected from without in what to the poor rodent would constitute divine intervention if it was minded to conceive of such.

@Viswa

And i also say that - if ‘dopamine’ ‘limbic’ are just words - then ‘conscious/sub-c./un-c.’ are also words and conceptual framework - as these all words and framework are introduced by scientists/psychologists.

Agreed, all words, all concepts are just an attempt at a verbal exchange between brains. The ability for observation and the capacity for listening to be, being the factors required throughout.

@Viswa

I also say that - We can be aware of everything - only when we integrate all and see as a whole - i.e.science and psychology as a whole. (Even K did many meetings with many scientists - to learn about brains,neurons,etc…)

Yes, and looked at from a slightly different perspective it is about addressing resistance, permitting openness, and allowing consciousness of deep fears to emerge to dissolve the blockages they are.

@Viswa

Recently neurologists have found a neuron which they think it should be present only in humans - which they name it as 'Rose-hip neuron’which is an inhibitory neuron (an inhibitory neuron acts as a break from sight and hearing reaching brain - i.e. when we see a tree - there is only seeing - no excitatory neurons act to bring back memories/past/thoughts/etc…) - and they think this ‘rose-hip neuron’ may reveal many human psychic disorders,etc…

This may relate to the notion of associations which can be triggered when something is partially seen whose reaction then interferes with the ability to fully observe.

[Viswa]

@Dominic

This may relate to the notion of associations which can be triggered when something is partially seen whose reaction then interferes with the ability to fully observe.

This partial seeing is because of the past/memories - which is ‘thought’ and physically there is excitement of those thought and is done by excitatory neurones as a response to the psych.

That interfering reaction is ‘awareness’ (psychological) and immediately inhibitory neurones acts a check/block (physical) and this ‘Rose-hip neurone’ forms more than one-tenth of inhibitory neurones in humans.

To see everything(i.e. physical and psychological) - I quoted these research - but seeing only these(i.e. physical/science) becomes a theory - as these neurones(i.e. physical) are secondary/responses to consciousness (i.e. psychological).

@Dominic

Well that is an artificially contrived circumstance effected from without in what to the poor rodent would constitute divine intervention if it was minded to conceive of such.

The act of ‘sex’ other than for reproduction - is also an artificial act - to forget all deep-fear,pain,sufferings,etc… temporarily like drugs - as poor humans not aware about this - and this artificial act is also a kind of divinity/meditation (i.e. experiencing nature’s beauty) on the ‘cost’ of ‘energy’ (i.e. semens,ojas).

Even eating food, drinking water, doing a work is also an act of divinity. Every sensual pleasure is an act of divinity in ‘now’ - but has a ‘cost/loss’. Only pleasure in form of thoughts which is past is an illusion

So the thing is - without escaping the deep-fear,sufferings,etc… by sensual pleasure on cost - can one experience the beauty of everything - and also be aware of everything at every moment?

[Dominic]

@Viswa

To see everything(i.e. physical and psychological) - I quoted these research - but seeing only these(i.e. physical/science) becomes a theory - as these neurones(i.e. physical) are secondary/responses to consciousness (i.e. psychological).

Is not the key thing here, that regardless of how it might be conceptualised, whether psychological or scientific, for the purpose of verbal communication, it is the feeling involved in the direct apprehension of it by the brain that counts for most? And if the principal feeling or sensation is that thing labelled fear, then that is where attention must naturally be. Intellectualisations about past, and memory, which essentially seek to minimise that strength of feeling, in an attempt at dismissing talk of it, serve as yet another protection the brain is in the service of itself.

@Viswa

The act of ‘sex’ other than for reproduction - is also an artificial act - to forget all deep-fear,pain,sufferings,etc… temporarily like drugs - as poor humans not aware about this - and this artificial act is also a kind of divinity/meditation (i.e. experiencing nature’s beauty) on the ‘cost’ of ‘energy’ (i.e. semens,ojas).

I would say it is organic still, rather than artificial in the true sense, but it is the natural balance of the brain effectively hijacked, which leads to dullness and insensitivity. It is further isolating and self-enclosing because of this desensitisation. The greater the sensitivity, the greater awareness both of what I am doing and why I am doing it, which seems to be the principal Krishnamurti was alluding to in saying that the capacity for complete observation of a thing changes it.

[Viswa]

@Dominic

Is not the key thing here, that regardless of how it might be conceptualised, whether psychological or scientific, for the purpose of verbal communication, it is the feeling involved in the direct apprehension of it by the brain that counts for most?

Ok - Now i can see what you are pointing out.

You say that the brain gets customized to this intellectual things and escape from seeing the ‘fear/etc’ - Right?

If that is so - yes - the brain is getting caught in these terms.

Why I posted these experiments and said that both scientific and psychological is that - many humans think that - the brain is doing everything and every feeling(like lust) is nature - we cannot live without these feelings. For them - these kind of scientific research - show that - these neurons like rose-hip and dopamine can be balanced and we can live without these feelings (i.e. being aware when it arises). And so we can bring out from this belief of “nature and not in my hands - i can’t’”.

@Dominic

I would say it is organic still, rather than artificial in the true sense, but it is the natural balance of the brain effectively hijacked, which leads to dullness and insensitivity. It is further isolating and self-enclosing because of this desensitisation. The greater the sensitivity, the greater awareness both of what I am doing and why I am doing it, which seems to be the principal Krishnamurti was alluding to in saying that the capacity for complete observation of a thing changes it.

Yes - being fully sensitive - aware of all of our acts and it’s efforts,etc…

I see that - you are pointing in most of the discussions about ‘deep-fear’.

Can you explain more about your observation on this ‘deep-fear’?

[sree]

Look at it this way. The priest is the conscience of Viswa (who is concerned about lust). The wolf is the lust (personified). The church is Viswas’s mind (or ego-consciousness). In coming back everyday, lust won’t go away and remains unresolved as an inner-conflict (i.e. Viswa’s moral struggle). The flock of sheep is the object of Viswa’s lust and it is winning the battle. If the story is true, Viswa is probably having dinner as we speak.

[Viswa]

HI sree - you are right. Not only dinner - even before going to office i was having breakfast. This was happening for me more than 10 years and not ‘now’.

[sree]

Is there a problem If you eat whenever you either feel hungry or see food that you like?