Sex, Lust and Freedom

[Viswa]

K: Sex plays an extraordinarily important part in our lives because it is perhaps the only deep, firsthand experience we have. Intellectually and emotionally we conform, imitate, follow, obey. There is pain and strife in all our relationships, except in the act of sex.

K: Thought, as we have said, sustains pleasure by thinking about something that has been pleasurable, cultivating the image, the picture. Thought engenders pleasure. Thinking about the sexual act becomes lust, which is entirely different from the act of sex. What most people are concerned with is the passion of lust. Craving before and after sex is lust. This craving is thought.

So - is act of sex/masturbation - an actual freedom from ‘pain’?

Whenever we are down (i.e. suffer) in our life - we think about ‘sex’ - and this thinking is called ‘lust’. In this feeling - we tend to watch porn or search for a partner - and also try to watch or indulge in a new type/category/fetish - and we feel it as ‘creativity’.

Is it a real creativity?

Is this craving - which happens for thousands of years (i.e. evolution from animals and from stone age) - brings the real miseries in our world? - (miseries like sexual harassment and seeing other person as a sexual object)

Does,

• controlling this lustful feelings, or
• diverting this by making an aim/going out for movie,etc…/spending time with friends,
  is helpful?

[Dominic]

@caviswa_gmail_com

Is this craving - which happens for thousands of years (i.e. evolution from animals and from stone age) - brings the real miseries in our world?

So is the essence of the thing here craving as a movement? There can be craving on the part of the animal when hungry for food, or when thirsty for drink, but unless there is an issue with food, or something like alcoholism then the craving ceases on the demand being met. Or is that not actually craving, and craving refers specifically to a thing carried on perpetually via thought. There is the biological imperative of sex obviously for the continuation of the species which is how we all come to be in the first place, or least that is the perception. So the same principle applies here as with observing anything else does it not, so craving as a tree or as a sunset. This is an ‘eye of the storm’ type of thing, the storm is never going to stop, trying to stop it is the storm still, so that only leaves the observing of it?

[Viswa]

@Dominic

So is the essence of the thing here craving as a movement?

Of course ‘craving’ as an essence is a movement. When we were a teenager, we had first time experience of this ‘sex’ and we found an immense pleasure it provides and stored that experience within us and whenever we face a situation that craving arises as thought - which is a movement,time.

@Dominic

There can be craving on the part of the animal when hungry for food, or when thirsty for drink, but unless there is an issue with food, or something like alcoholism then the craving ceases on the demand being met. Or is that not actually craving, and craving refers specifically to a thing carried on perpetually via thought

Craving means a strong desire. This ‘craving for sex/alcohol on basis of individual conditions’ is there always - wakes up in a situation and goes to sleep when it is satisfied - and goes on and on and on like this. Even animals have this strong desire - from which we evolved - as we can see a male lion - to attract a female lion - show it’s dominance - becomes the head of the pride (the head is also responsible to protect the pride) and win female’s attention.

The food,water are needs without which one cannot live. We cannot stop these needs as our body is conditioned to act so.

Yes craving is carried out via thought. So, what makes us to get attached/addicted to sex/porn/alcohol/etc… and crave for it?

@Dominic

This is an ‘eye of the storm’ type of thing, the storm is never going to stop, trying to stop it is the storm still, so that only leaves the observing of it?

Yes - tried many ways to stop it and it didn’t. But why we try to stop it? because we ‘believe’ it’s something wrong as the society,religion says? and so we fail to actually observe the whole thing.

@Dominic

There is the biological imperative of sex obviously for the continuation of the species which is how we all come to be in the first place, or least that is the perception. So the same principle applies here as with observing anything else does it not, so craving as a tree or as a sunset

So, we see this scientific fact that we born because of this - but we don’t watch porn/ have sex for reproduction - and we condition ourselves that - the biological need for reproduction is more equally applicable for psychological craving for sex - Right?

[Dominic]

@caviswa_gmail_com

Even animals have this strong desire - from which we evolved - as we can see a male lion - to attract a female lion - show it’s dominance - becomes the head of the pride (the head is also responsible to protect the pride) and win female’s attention.

Well there is a range of behaviour in the rest of the animal kingdom. There are rutting seasons and mating seasons, and all year round, there are the swans who are said to mate for life and if one if the partners dies, they never take up with another. Our closest genetic relatives are said to be the Chimpanzees and the smaller Bonobo, and the first are very aggressive and hierarchical and if an infant’s mother is killed that can be curtains for the infant, while the Bonobos are held to be highly sociable and use sex as a greeting, and pet and groom one another continually. An infant Bonobo which loses its mother will immediately be taken in by another of the young, single females. So the question of what the natural intelligence of the human animal is with regards to its own proclivities is obscured by the interference of thought.

@caviswa_gmail_com

Yes craving is carried out via thought. So, what makes us to get attached/addicted to sex/porn/alcohol/etc… and crave for it?

Craving is in essence a form of amplification, and a thing cut loose from any natural limitation. You might call it unnatural, except nature has it as one of its many possibilities.

@caviswa_gmail_com

So, we see this scientific fact that we born because of this - but we don’t watch porn/ have sex for reproduction - and we condition ourselves that - the biological need for reproduction is more equally applicable for psychological craving for sex - Right?

Yes craving has appropriated a natural thing, but is a thing in it’s own right. And like a crack dealer handing out crack to create a steady stream of new customers it has been endlessly stoked. The priest and the imam seeking power through the control of it, are as the advertiser and the pornographer endlessly exploiting it.

[Dominic]

Is not the essence of all here, both on and of this forum, the fact of pleasure, the fact of pleasure seeking and of comfort, suffering, and the pleasure that can be, as much as anything else. And then problem, and then struggle, struggle, struggle, which is, preoccupation, and preoccupation is like…thank you very much, that will do nicely! So the proverbial elephant in the room is, what is the equal and opposite force generating this amount of seeking, evasion, avoidance, preoccupation?

[Viswa]

@Dominic

Is not the essence of all here, both on and of this forum, the fact of pleasure, the fact of pleasure seeking and of comfort, suffering, and the pleasure that can be, as much as anything else. And then problem, and then struggle, struggle, struggle, which is, preoccupation, and preoccupation is like…thank you very much, that will do nicely! So the proverbial elephant in the room is, what is the equal and opposite force generating this amount of seeking, evasion, avoidance, preoccupation?

One word answer is ‘Order’.
We find in life - something is missing - as we suffer,etc… - and we search for an orderly life - and it becomes a mechanical process of seeking security - having pleasure - then comes pain - then seeking another order - then pleasure - it goes on as such.

Even if we ‘see’ us - we are sufferings and isolated - we run for an order.

@Dominic

Well there is a range of behaviour in the rest of the animal kingdom. There are rutting seasons and mating seasons, and all year round, there are the swans who are said to mate for life and if one if the partners dies, they never take up with another. Our closest genetic relatives are said to be the Chimpanzees and the smaller Bonobo, and the first are very aggressive and hierarchical and if an infant’s mother is killed that can be curtains for the infant, while the Bonobos are held to be highly sociable and use sex as a greeting, and pet and groom one another continually. An infant Bonobo which loses its mother will immediately be taken in by another of the young, single females. So the question of what the natural intelligence of the human animal is with regards to its own proclivities is obscured by the interference of thought.

Please leave mother’s affection aside (i say affection,seasons as nature and not intelligence) - because we can see this in any living beings - but that’s not the point.
You know - many animals including male chimpanzees fight their child to get out - as it thinks the child may become his competitor - and so it assures that he is the only mate for the females. Just check this out
https://www.livescience.com/48743-aggressive-chimps-reproduce-more.html#:~:text=The%20battle%20of%20the%20sexes,of%20females%20to%20mate%20again.

@Dominic

Craving is in essence a form of amplification, and a thing cut loose from any natural limitation. You might call it unnatural, except nature has it as one of its many possibilities.

What do you mean by this ? I couldn’t understand - are you saying - we cannot escape from/stop craving - as it is nature?

@Dominic

And like a crack dealer handing out crack to create a steady stream of new customers it has been endlessly stoked. The priest and the imam seeking power through the control of it, are as the advertiser and the pornographer endlessly exploiting it.

Many Humans do whatever and whenever to sustain and grow in business/profession.

[Dominic]

@caviswa_gmail_com

@Dominic

Craving is in essence a form of amplification, and a thing cut loose from any natural limitation. You might call it unnatural, except nature has it as one of its many possibilities.

What do you mean by this ? I couldn’t understand - are you saying - we cannot escape from/stop craving - as it is nature?

I mean that if craving is seen primarily as thought extending a thing the animal is naturally, then it is similar to the principal of amplification, as in amplifying sound, giving it a greater presence and making it a permanent fixture. But at the same time, this could not be, if it were not a possibility of the brain, which is a thing in nature, and which in our case is that possibility realised. So not inevitable, but not impossible.

[Viswa]

@Dominic

But at the same time, this could not be, if it were not a possibility of the brain, which is a thing in nature, and which in our case is that possibility realised. So not inevitable, but not impossible.

So - Let’s see this craving deeply. It is present always and grows in a situation - when a new male/female is seen by the opposite gender - and thinks that “i must own him/her”.

So why this craving in form of thought arises? - i’m not asking about it is nature or not - but in which situation this craving arises/let loose?

Why we feel that ‘sex/alcohol/porn/drugs’ give immense pleasure?

[Inquiry]

@caviswa_gmail_com

There is pain and strife in all our relationships, except in the act of sex

I can remember feeling that way. Oh youth!

[presence]

Sex may be a problem for some, but the problem isn’t universal. It’s just energy wanting to express itself.

[Viswa]

Yeah - but i mainly concerned about lust - which at many times arises and blocks us to have actual relationship with people.
‘This energy wanting to express itself’ - can you describe about that more?

[DanMcD]

@caviswa_gmail_com

‘This energy wanting to express itself’

Don’t try to restrain it. It will flow over every dam you try to build!

[Viswa]

@DanMcD

Don’t try to restrain it. It will flow over every dam you try to build!

Yes - we don’t have to restrain it. But i ask why - in which situation - arises? to observe it as a whole.

[Inquiry]

@DanMcD

Don’t try to restrain it. It will flow over every dam you try to build!

Funny you should say that. I can’t remember where I read it, but when someone asked K what to do about lustful thoughts and desires, K told him that you have to “bank” that energy. What exactly that meant, he didn’t go on to say. My guess is that he was referring to sublimation, which literally means turning something crude into something sublime.

[DanMcD]

Another story: A priest in a village was having a problem with a wolf that was eating his sheep. He thought I’ll bring in the wolf and show him that what he was doing was wrong. He brought the wolf into his church and started to preach about the evil that the wolf was doing. The wolf listened to the preaching and came back day after day. One day the priest was going on with his preaching and the wolf was looking out the window of the church at the flock of sheep grazing in the field and as the priest went on and on, the wolf thought “Oh get on with it priest, or I shall miss my dinner!”

[Inquiry]

Non Sequitur…

[DanMcD]

You speak latin?..

[Dominic]

@caviswa_gmail_com

So why this craving in form of thought arises? - i’m not asking about it is nature or not - but in which situation this craving arises/let loose?

Why we feel that ‘sex/alcohol/porn/drugs’ give immense pleasure?

Are we asking what role or function craving is, what job of work it is trying to accomplish by being the thing it is?

[Viswa]

@Dominic

Are we asking what role or function craving is, what job of work it is trying to accomplish by being the thing it is?

Yes - and also observing everything like, how,when,why it arises? and ‘see’ the root of it.

[Dominic]

@caviswa_gmail_com

Yes - and also observing everything like, how,when,why it arises? and ‘see’ the root of it.

Say I see a really beautiful woman or a man and it isn’t enough to just be the observation of that but I am struck by a longing to have someone like that, and I am left with an empty feeling at the fact I do not. That there is no one there for me like that to shower me with their attentions. So there is the feeling of being no one and being nothing without such a one. So might craving relate to feeling empty and an attempt at covering that up, as an equal and opposite reaction?

The greater or more successful the perceived cover, the greater the desire to attain it. But covering up emptiness has nothing to do with the survival of species, so is it a phenomena related solely to an artificial thing such as a centre? If emptiness that requires covering only exists when a centre exists, then might craving serve effectively as that centre’s power plant?