Only when our emotional investment in what we think is total. If you have any doubts or questions about what you think, you’re not a strong believer in your self.
The believer is part and parcel of the thought stream
The believer is the belief, but when its emotional investment in itself is not total, it is free to examine itself and question its validity.
Why can’t the thinker see what is on the mind, whether it is reading, listening, watching, and realise the nature of this reading etc? That is immediately, directly, not through a prism of self, intellect, belief, sentiment, emotions, etc? Is it because fundamentally, instinctively, it is all irrelevant to the true nature of living?
Because much of thought is unconscious. We can only know what we’re aware of, and we can only be aware of our superficial thinking.
No, I am asking about the obvious. Reading, listening, watching, to what is actually a physical presence, such as words on a page, spoken words, human activity, etc. We are not aware of the actual content even superficially. Is it the standard thinking which is the distraction through conditioning, working with its own interpretation, missing the actual content? This interpretative thinking with its own agenda, is dismissive of the true nature of living.
True dat! Not that our unconscious thoughts are any less deluded than the conscious ones (stating the obvious, just in case)
Look, we have to go into this for the first time. The fact is nobody really ‘knows’ what K is talking about when he uses the words …the brain cells go through some kind of mutation. We really don’t know. Period. All our ‘knowledge’ regarding this, especially scientific knowledge is very sketchy to say the least. We really don’t know. That is where to begin. Is there a real freedom from the whole structure of what we ‘know’ so that you and I can find our way into all this? Without that freedom first we cannot move into such an immense question. And what K is pointing towards is something really immense which has nothing to do with ‘me’ or ‘you’ as a conditioned ‘entity’. Is that very, very clear to all of us as we are reading this? The whole structure & movement of ‘conditioning’ has to be put completely to the side and that can only happen if ‘you’ & ‘I’ see-through this whole structure of ‘conditioning’ and the search for so called ‘security’. Now, is this possible? Otherwise to go into this question ‘Can the brain cells go through a deep mutation’ is rather meaningless. First, there must be complete freedom from the whole psychological structure that ‘thought’ has built. Only then is there this freedom with its immense energy and intelligence and that very energy and intelligence is going to find out for itself …‘you’ are out of the picture. Now is this so? Has every last motive, gross or subtle been seen? Or is ‘thought’ playing the same old game of being ‘extremely clever’ and the sense of continuity as ‘me’ is still very much in the picture? You see, it gets very serious. All this demands great attention, a mind that accepts nothing at face value. It is deeply discontent with every concept, every ideal, every assumption that the ‘conditioned mind’ throws up in order to find an answer to this immense question. There cannot be a single motive if you and I are to proceed further into this immense question. Which means no TIME. We are entering into something which is totally beyond time as we ‘know’ it. Are we together in this with the same intensity looking at this with that energy? Without that energy nothing totally new can come into being. That energy which is not the result of thought has its own intelligence. You follow? It is THAT that is going to find out. That energy is free of thought and time. Are we together going into this step by step?
Hi there.
See - what is put forth before by you - needs immense strength or deep observation - i can see it.
But, many will question this as -
How you are going to face these kind of questions?
You and I can’t see through anything because you and I are conditioned to see only what we recognize and believe. We are effectively blind to the existence of what our conditioning cannot acknowledge. If the structure and nature of the conditioned mind can be seen for what it is, it can’t be the conditioned mind seeing it.
You say we “are entering into something which is totally beyond time as we know it”, but we’re all familiar with such statements, the meanings of which are lost on the conditioned mind. We are bound by time and the known until or if something happens to the brain to free it from its current condition.
Well, he did say a mutation in the brain cells. So, at that time he was making an unsubstantiated biological claim. I think he was speculating. Although, science has now shown that the brain can change shape, that it is much more elastic than we would normally think. So, maybe K was onto something.
But this begs another question. Is a mutation of the brain cells relevant at all? What was he implying, a physical alteration of the brain so it no longer creates the self-center? Why not find the part of the brain that does this and perform surgery to remove it, then self observation, insight and meditation would no longer be necessary.
But you are still asking something impossible of the confused brain. You are asking the confused brain to locate the source of its own confusion. And its search is already a destructive search because its primary motive is to remove confusion in order to bring about a better life. Therefore it is all a movement of pleasure. It is this very movement that is corrupting the brain cells because the desire for pleasure must always bring pain in its wake.
I wasn’t asking that. I was speculating as to why K brought it up and offered a sarcastic alternative.
Then I missed seeing the sarcasm, sorry.
But do you see how the desire for pleasure in all its forms - sensory, emotional, intellectual, sexual - corrupts the brain cells? We may take delight in simple pleasures, which come and go every day. But to desire the repetition of a pleasurable experience leaves an effect upon the brain.
I don’t really know what happens to the brain cells. I suppose most things leave an impact on the brain but I am no brain neuroscientist. But I do see that it is unnecessary to comment on the brain cells to gain insight into the workings of me.
I will let you know what I see about the desire for pleasure the next time it rears its head. 
Then it’s too late. The desire for pleasure is embedded in the brain cells. So we can see it right now; we don’t need any further examples. This is not sarcasm, persuasion, boasting, guesswork or graveyard humour. When we employ those mannerisms to communicate with one another we are allowing the brain cells to follow their own familiar groove.
This is not clear at all. In what way are the brain cells corrupted by desire for pleasure? I thought you said that this is embedded in the brain…this desire for continuity of pleasure…or repetition of pleasure. Looking back I can see how my life was centered around that. Desire to see a good film, buy the latest CD by a favorite band or singer, buy something or other which will bring pleasure…a new pair of running shoes, which I may not even need, for example. There’s the desire to watch the big baseball or football game…or to go surfing or skiing or golfing. Where do you see actual physical corruption in the brain from all this? I see how it brings contradiction and division yes. I may not be able to achieve the pleasure I desire and then there is frustration, disappointment, anger, even. This is the usual human condition however…going from pleasure to frustration or fear or anger at my pleasure being thwarted. I’m just laying out how I see that human beings are caught in this kind of conflict in daily living.
You have just answered your own question: the brain cell activity is manifested in our daily behaviour. By calling it the usual human condition, the brain cells are free to carry on with their destructive patterns. By allowing ourselves to believe that we are conditioned, we grant permission for the whole charade to continue.
The patterns are destructive yes. That I can see. It wasn’t clear what you meant saying that desire corrupts the physical cells themselves. But this subject of pleasure and how it relates to creating fear and human disorder is something that needs further exploration, imo. As I wrote, for most of us, it’s considered totally normal to function seeking fulfillment almost constantly. It’s almost never questioned even by the religious people. They’'re seeking fulfillment with their prayers and in their daily living too, I 'm quite certain. But the OP in another thread asks the question about whether we can live entirely without fear, and seeking pleasure is the other side of the coin according to K, so we should look further at this aspect. I see I’m posting this last point on the wrong thread (my browser went a little crazy) so I may repeat it in the thread about living without fear.
Do you mean that conditioning only continues because I believe that I’m conditioned? That doesn’t make sense. Most of us aren’t even aware that we’re conditioned. But if we go into the subject we can observe that our reactions are conditioned and that thought is conditioned. This is not just a belief. Or is it in your view?
No, it makes perfect sense. What earthly use is the belief that I am conditioned? Where did it come from? If we are aware of our own conditioned responses, that’s enough. But to build any belief from that is to build the image of a self as an imperfect entity that can one day become perfect. Then awareness becomes a terrible game; and we never move out of the whole image-making cycle. In that cycle we are experiencing the endless repetition of psychological pleasure and pain. Because in order to live with the image of ourselves as this imperfect being, pleasure becomes our only escape. Do you see this?
I think I understand your point. I see the fact of conditioning. Then I make the memory of that seeing into an image…“I am conditioned” becomes only an image…and the next time I look at myself, I’m looking through the image instead of just looking/observing. Is that what you’re getting at? As long as I have an image…any image…I can’t observe/look.