Ok then - congrats - live with the tricks and ‘me’. There is nothing to observe then.
Bye. Have a wonderful conditioned Life.
Bye. Have a wonderful conditioned Life.
Thank you for such profound compassion. No doubt the result of pure observation.
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These words ‘Thankyou’ ‘for’ ‘such’ ‘profound’ ‘compassion’, ‘no’ ‘doubt’ ‘the’ ‘result’ ‘of’ ‘pure’ ‘observation’ - all words are tricks played by the mind.
Every words in every language are tricks,tricks and tricks.
K is a big magician, and played tricks and fooled us (the whole humanity) with his ‘observation’ and these words.
Thank you so much - you opened my eyes.
See. I’m very Sorry. I tried my best - to bring you out from your belief that “everything is trick played by mind” “there is nothing as observation” (i doesn’t know whether you are in a belief - it’s my view)
I tried you to show it
You didn’t listened
I begged you to the core
You didn’t gave attention to it
In my view (i doesn’t know whether it is right) - Everything you did was to show others that you are right and to protect it - you played.
And to show again that you are in this belief and playing, I said this - in your way - this may help you to see “what you are doing and how you are deceiving”
But i think there is no other means to show you - your belief.
If I do any other way - other than this - it becomes like Authority or order - It’s upto you to observe/not.
I’m sorry and Thank you again.
why than using so much words instead of avoid them as much as you can and be clear in what you’re saying/doing ?
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Funny, noticing the shift into the “I” above. Even funnier, looks like the guru has arrived along with a retinue of sock puppets.
Looks like you were the chosen one. 
and a bait is being laid out for this one. here, https://forum.kinfonet.org/t/on-radical-change/356/248
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Can we look carefully at this question? We have gone off to a few other things, but this may be a way we can all get back together.
I don’t know if there is an actual identified thing that produces the sensation of pain. Obviously it is a relationship between the physical body and and the emotion of fear - 99% fear as far as I can tell.
Before fear comes in there must be awareness of a threat or danger. But threat to what? Danger to what?
To me - Danger threatening my identity, or my wellbeing, bodily integrity, stuff like that
PS - is there pain without fear?
So what is my identity? Let’s look at that. It is all the things I am attached to, isn’t it? There are the physical things like my house and my furniture; and there are the psychological things like my beliefs and ambitions. Both the physical and the psychological possessions give me pleasure, don’t they? That’s at the root of my attachment to them. Would you agree?
If so, then pain is felt as any threat to this attachment; and from the sensation of pain comes the prospect of fear. Psychologically, can pain exist without fear? Or the one produces the other.
And this raises the question of whether it is possible to be aware only of the pain itself without the accompanying fear. Because without fear, as thought and time, the whole nature of the pain must be radically different.
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If you are asking whether the root of my attachement to myself is pleasure - I must answer : I don’t know. I don’t get why pleasure has been identified as the root. Nor if we can really point at the root.
Why else would I be attached to anyone, to anything or to any idea? If they don’t give me pleasure I drop them.
Difficult to disagree with with this assessment - Should we then assume that it is correct? Which also means that our understanding upon which this assessment is made is correct, and that we are reasonable actors in our own life.
This goes also for the proposed assessment of pain/fear. Difficult to argue against the idea that we are afraid of something because it is painful. The opposite idea that pain is a result of fear is difficult to demonstrate, because it goes against our habitual experience.
What is our goal here, in this dialogue? Should I be trying to show that our assessments of reality are subjective, and based on experience? I could also agree with what you said (re: pleasure and attachment) because it is an acceptable narrative?
Habit, belief, tradition, fear, conditioning, confusion.
If this option is possible, and all other forces ignored. Though I am not sure that the self has such an unobstructed control over itself.
Well, we’re attached to our ideas that produce fear too, right? I have a neighbor who I’m frightened of or who I dislike. That’s not attachment to pleasure. What about like AND dislike. It’s not all pleasure. Or is it I dislike my neighbor because he denies me pleasure of some sort? I’m a big Yankee fan and my neighbor isn’t interested…won’t talk about my passion…only is interested in his art or poetry. When I meet up with him, I have nothing to say and he has nothing to say because we have no common ground…or so we feel. Why can’t I see him free of my image/s of him and free of my desire to talk about my own self centered interests? And visa versa? Consciousness is all our images and our attachments to them.
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We are looking at the question of what we consider to be our greatest problem in life. Therefore the dialogue has no goal other than just to look together. The moment we start looking with an end in view, a goal, we are no longer really together. Are we clear about the question? Or do we already have an answer to it which then distorts our looking?
Pleasure may be at the root of our problems, but if we just say, ‘Yes, that’s definitely the root of it,’ it has very little meaning. It is just one statement among a host of other statements. That’s why we brought in the question of whether it is possible to be so aware of the pain that arises when our pleasures are thwarted that no other reaction takes place. The pain that arises when any attachment to pleasure is threatened.
Hi there.
I think - these fear,pleasure,pain,idea,belief,etc… is not different from us to get attached to. “We are it”.
But what attachment really means is - i seek pleasure from something - and if i gained it - i get to attached with like “to my parents,house,wife,car,child,etc…”
As you said,
It’s true. As we didn’t gain pleasure from them and so we are not attached.
I think it’s fear - that restricts one to be free from images/desire.
Obviously, but pleasure is at the root. Psychological fear cannot exist without pleasure and all its images, both of like and dislike. I like what provides me with pleasures; therefore my dislike is directly bound up with pleasure.
and what is the root of fear ?
Having nothing to depend on , the idea of being “no-thing” all hell breaks loose!