What is our greatest problem in life?

Kinfonet Discussion
125

So what is it that gets hurt? Before the suffering appears and before we are caught in time and thought, what is it in me that actually gets hurt?

126

Hello, as I must leave now, I will come back tomorrow…cheers from Ireland :slightly_smiling_face:

127

Something tells me we are not unless serious consideration is given to the part subconscious and unconscious is playing in this.

128

Not at all. The what-is is only what-is. No suffering, no pleasure etc. The what-should-be is the creation/invention of the me/mind. And depending on this creation that does not match the reality of what-is there may be anger, pleasure etc which we call suffering.

Without getting bogged down with the intellect, it is very easy to see this in daily life events. That is also why different people suffer differently depending on their what-should-be. Suppose both of us decide to have dinner at a restaurant. When we go there we find it has just closed. That is the reality. In itself there is no suffering. You face the reality and again there is no suffering. But I resist. I had already created some expectations in my mind. I had imagined eating some tasty dishes there. Therefore I am unable to face the reality like you. I am disappointed, frustrated etc. I ask the owner if he can open it for a few minutes and so on. The stronger my expectation of what-should-be the more my suffering. In other words, the stronger the illusion the greater the suffering.

If we jump into an illusion (i.e. what should be) - it is a belief of another pleasure. So trying to escape from ‘what-is’(i.e. sufferings) by ‘believing’ & ‘running’ for another pleasure(expecting to end suffer) - is the cause of further suffering. Do you mean this?

Why do you say ‘if’? The me is the past and the constant projection of the past into the future as what-should-be is illusion. Essentially the me is illusion. But again however much we understand this logically, it continues.

129

I can control the illusion, but it is still just illusion. What is it about the ‘what is’ that causes this flight to illusion?

Then control the illusion and be free of it. Humanity has been trying to do that for millions of years. The what-is simply exists as reality. The what-should-be is illusion and leads to further illusion.

1 Like
130

So, ‘what-is’ the reality is not what takes place outside alone. We need to observe what takes place inside(psychologically) as ‘what-is’ too.

‘What-is’ (psychologically) - is ‘suffering’ as ‘expectation’ being ‘hurt’. Actually when we face the reality - it’s not happening as you said. It’s an idea/belief that - ‘face it - It’s done’.

See when you traveled hundred miles - to reach that restaurant, the reality outside is ‘closed’. But inside(psychologically) - there is ‘suffering’. As you said, it may be because of ‘image’,‘expectation’ - but also there is an ‘image’ of ‘travelling miles for this restaurant’ - now it’s also hurt.

So - if we escape with an idea/belief ‘we have to face the reality’ - then the circus goes on.

So - instead of ‘logically’ understanding, shall we ‘actually’ ‘observe’ ‘what-is’?

131

But the something that tells you this is not itself coming from the unconscious: it is coming directly from memory. So memory itself may the core of resistance.

132

You can’t control illusion. After all, this is the biggest illusion of all: the whole notion of control which assumes a controller at the centre to make adjustments and put things right. He doesn’t; he just makes a bigger mess. We can see very clearly that the ‘what should be’ arises from our many reactions to what is. But perhaps there is no what is as reality. Perhaps this is the heart of the illusion, the start of all our madness.

133

You can’t control illusion.

Earlier you said ‘I can control the illusion’. My reply was to that statement.

We can see very clearly that the ‘what should be’ arises from our many reactions to what is.

The so called ‘seeing very clearly’ may also be a myth since the me continues.

134

All these words like actually, observe etc are tricks played by the mind/me to continue itself. They are new escapes created by the me after getting some knowledge of K’s terminology. The me then continues by saying ‘I will observe what-is’ and so on.

135

Yes, but I also said that it is still just illusion. It is the illusion of control.

No, there is no me to continue or discontinue. The ‘should be’ arises from a misperception of what is. But there is no what is as psychological reality. So from the very start it is misperception. The ‘me’ comes in not at the point of, ‘This is what should be,’ but at the point of, ‘This is what is.’ Do you see the difference?

136

Yes, but I also said that it is still just illusion. It is the illusion of control.

That is what I had said to begin with.

The ‘me’ comes in not at the point of, ‘This is what should be,’ but at the point of, ‘This is what is.’ Do you see the difference?

There is no difference as long as the me exists. It is still the me saying ’ This is what should be’, ’ This is what is’ and ‘this is the difference’.

No, there is no me to continue or discontinue

Ok. I have nothing more to say.

137

Ok - then please show me other words to ask one to ‘observe’.

If we restrict with a belief that “we can’t observe the conditioned mind” - then why do we gather here? only for mere intellectual pleasure? then why do K has to spend his whole life - to beg others to ‘observe’?

If you say that ‘mind’ plays with these words - Leave the words. Just ‘observe’ what happens - either outside(humanity) or inwards(invididual). Because mind is same for you and me. Just a pure ‘observation’ of ‘what-is’(i.e. the ‘I’) is the only thing i ask.

If we will ‘observe’ - only when I kneel down - bow down and beg you to ‘observe’ - I’m ready to do that too.

138

Then you have shut yourself off and you are still left with the problem of living with the ‘me’. We are saying that there is no me from the start. Therefore it is not a matter of surrender or control, of continuation or dissolution of the ‘me’. Yet we have been caught in this trap for centuries.

When you hear someone say, ‘There is no me,’ there may be immediate resistance to the statement. The immediate response is, ‘But of course I exist! You exist!’ But what do we exist as? Obviously, there is the body with its attributes of age, height and weight. But as psychological beings we don’t exist until there is memory involved. We can’t describe, expand or protect ourselves without memory. So it is only ever memory that says, ‘I exist.’ It is an echo from the past.

Now, one can listen to an echo that reinforces experience or one can listen to something new that turns existence upon its head. One can operate from a centre of memory and hurt; or the centre is gone - sorry, not ‘gone’ because something gone can come back - the centre is never there.

139

On the contrary, the tricks played by the conditioned mind conditioned by some knowledge of K teachings can be observed.

Because mind is same for you and me. Just a pure ‘observation’ of ‘what-is’(i.e. the ‘I’) is the only thing i ask.

It is easy to condition oneself this way by making dogmas out of ‘pure observation’, ‘what-is’, and so on. The me will simply not surrender but will only keep pursuing such catchy words and continue with greater strength.

140

Ok then - congrats - live with the tricks and ‘me’. There is nothing to observe then.

Bye. Have a wonderful conditioned Life.

141

Bye. Have a wonderful conditioned Life.

Thank you for such profound compassion. No doubt the result of pure observation.

1 Like
142

These words ‘Thankyou’ ‘for’ ‘such’ ‘profound’ ‘compassion’, ‘no’ ‘doubt’ ‘the’ ‘result’ ‘of’ ‘pure’ ‘observation’ - all words are tricks played by the mind.

Every words in every language are tricks,tricks and tricks.

K is a big magician, and played tricks and fooled us (the whole humanity) with his ‘observation’ and these words.

Thank you so much - you opened my eyes.

143

See. I’m very Sorry. I tried my best - to bring you out from your belief that “everything is trick played by mind” “there is nothing as observation” (i doesn’t know whether you are in a belief - it’s my view)

I tried you to show it

You didn’t listened

I begged you to the core

You didn’t gave attention to it

In my view (i doesn’t know whether it is right) - Everything you did was to show others that you are right and to protect it - you played.

And to show again that you are in this belief and playing, I said this - in your way - this may help you to see “what you are doing and how you are deceiving”

But i think there is no other means to show you - your belief.

If I do any other way - other than this - it becomes like Authority or order - It’s upto you to observe/not.

I’m sorry and Thank you again.

144

why than using so much words instead of avoid them as much as you can and be clear in what you’re saying/doing ?

3 Likes