Ideology, division, nature, and wisdom

Kinfonet Discussion
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Everything in every divisive book on earth that divides mankind from mankind is myth and superstition. The cause of insanity and chaos and all the false wisdom of division. Every lie in the form of propaganda on how to live, dress,eat and what divinity, or divine beings to supplicate to in those books for good luck. Every description of who to worship for food, success, good luck in life, a mate, children, or our desires, that comes from believing in the pernicious divisive, false surrendering to fate. Falsely believing in successful efforts in all supplicating systems of prayer. Believing in the placebo effect of prayer. Believing in following the dogmas in religious books.

Believing in the extreme rabid propaganda in those childish , immature children’s books. Worshiping as holy those children’s books. Children’s tall tales, in books full of fables, myths, direct orders from selfish egotistical misogynistic gay hating deities, invented in mankind’s image. Believing in all the ancient lies, and morbid worship, in fear, worshiping the sorrow of life, in the handwritten manmade never fulfilled promises in ancient books. Believing in all the tribal, and invented family covenants with manmade deities, and other similar kinds of horrible pernicious divisive lies spread out all over earth in the last ten thousand years. Preaching from those books is not wisdom at all. Preaching from them is superstition, programming, and divisive brain rot. That preaching produces all the levels of extreme psychological terrorists. All the wanna be powerful, power mad political criminals, and their wealthy nationalistic brainwashed immature, insane dishonest benefactors.

Benefactors , bribing them on earth. to war against their neighbors for their lands, wealth, and resources or an ideal fair to all people secular governing system they want to change. They the propagandists have never produced peace themselves in the past and never will in the future. They with their endless genocidal aggressive wars, and economies dependent on their munitions industries, will never, and have never with few exceptions, ever invaded a neighboring nation with their armies, that was not started by them telling everyone in their nations their own absolute lies.

Filling their heads with promises about supporting their peoples childish superstitions, and their own perverse news systems, spreading lies with divisive propaganda, and absolute lies. Never have so many ignorant people accepted genocide on earth, as they all do in the world today as the most insane leaders in the world orchestrate the destruction, of the lives of billions of innocent people all over the world in death camps while killing millions of their children in so many other horrible, and ghastly ways as our planet burns. Ponder on these things for yourselves.

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Sounds legit - Information, narratives and our experience of those narratives are not truth. Except that we are truly having these experiences.

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So, the reality that we live in is not the reality of ‘truth’ (or the way things actually are)? Can we be totally free of this false reality (if it is that) with all its suffering and live in the ‘actual’ , leaving behind these thousands of years of ignorant, misguided indoctrination? (If that’s what it has been).
Krishnamurti’s statement is that a new ‘instrument’ is needed. Thought can not do it. Thought can solve a lot but not this. And he nor anyone else can give this ‘instrument’ to another . But it must be perceived that finding it is essential…that freedom is essential.

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What exactly is this false reality each brain creates for itself, and why does the brain do it?

Why does what the brain thinks matter more than what is actually happening every moment?

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The false reality is what the brain since childhood absorbed. The indoctrination about who and what we are and how we should act and think and feel about ourselves, the others, the world, the universe where we’ve come from, where we’re going etc etc.

I think @Dano put it in a lot of detail in the post.

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Does it take a lot of detail to say that the brain’s conditioning is founded on its believe that its image of itself, its false sense of who/what it is, matters more than anything?

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The young brain doesn’t know what ‘matters’. It is innocent. It counts on the elders to tell it what matters. Not only the ‘family’ elders but the myriad books and stories written by the elders. Propaganda about what ‘matters’ And how you should be and how you should not be. We’re not aware of our ‘false reality’ in the same way a goldfish in a bowl isn’t aware of the water!

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We don’t know if the young brain is innocent because we know the young brain follows, ignores leaders, and revolts against leaders. We don’t know much more about the young brain than we know about our own brain, and we don’t know our selves well enough to know we’re making it all up as we go along.

We’re not aware of our ‘false reality’ in the same way a goldfish in a bowl isn’t aware of the water!

If I have no sense of what a fraud I am, yes, I’m a fish who doesn’t know what water is. But if I’m suffering enough from my need to be somebody, I can’t really be sure of anything.

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Yes friends. I see Global warming, and world wars, are like the experiment in the way we boil some kinds of living seafood and animal life? We put the living organism in luke warm water, and slowly bring the water up to the boiling point. The organisms are unaware of the problem until the water reaches a too hot boiling point to react fully. In the same way the world is not reacting to ganging up. As we approach the extreme divisions we see weaker nations siding with more powerful nations for their own purpose’s of survival not especially because they are bad nations full of bad people with a lot of money earned in a criminal way. Not like the wealthy powerful nations, with too many insane corrupt judges, and insane corrupt politicians, as real criminals, financing and supporting munitions industries, medical and chemical pollution, pollution of the environment, and all life, and more agressive wars on our dying planet.

These movements that make them more billions of dollars. Those serving the so called royal oligarch families in their divided wealthy nations. Serving the extremely gluttonous irregardless of their values, ethics, morals and principles? Serving anyone with extreme wealth, irregardless of where their wealth came from? The present crisis is on the way to boiling over, and worse than anyone alive on earth has ever seen globally, not just locally. So is the needed tool for the masses to change already known programming. A perfect reconditioning from the left or right neither would ever accept? A new reinvention from the past or a new scientific formulation? A new superstition grounded religion? A Placebo? An accident? Or is it really awareness that represents all life forms on earth and all living creatures, and animals not thought?

An awareness that psychological thought has successfully demoted, as something to be controlled like nature? An awareness that was always new, always available to evolve from the beginning of mankind’s first steps on two legs on this dying, burning, warring manmade divided hellishly suffering planet? If the new tool is new, if its vehicle is awareness, that conveys insights, flashes of perception, than it will never come from the past in newly reinvented and reformed religious, or political, and economic harshly pragmatic thought it will be creative, and brand new a demotion of non fact based thought in its rightful place under awareness, and perception in the now. Do we here think it will not come in awareness but will come by controlling all thought and finding the right programming, and language?

What do you as an individual think? How could it not be about you and your ability to see, be aware of all the facts and feel the rising temperature on earth, and ride out the mega storms, we see on earth now, and the genocidal wars thought has and is causing on earth for yourselves? How could this tragedy not be about me and you and all individuals to see for ourselves as new and caused by mankind’s divided up and invented and reinvented modified, reformed over and over pernicious thought systems. These systems and formulas are the cause of this horrible tragedy. Digging in muddy piles of myths superstitions, and religious thought dung, or communist thought dung, is not the place to look to find a solution? Is it for any of you?

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Yes, we are a movement of fear and greed - and thought is serving that evil.

Either I continue to serve my privileges with all the cunning I can muster, damn the consequences.

Or I am sickened to the core by the fact of being the source of harm.

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Let’s not blame thought for the conditioned brain’s abuse of it.

I am sickened to the core by the fact of being the source of harm.

I doubt that the conditioned brain has to be sick of its conditioning to snap out of it. I suspect it has to be aware of itself in a way it has never been aware.

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Seeing what we as mankind have produced as far as global wars, genocide, global warming division pollution, discrimination between the rich and poor, men and women, gender bias, extreme Nationalism, and nations isolating into nationalism. As well as wars between religions. This should not cause self hatred or guilt unless we are wearing blinders like horses at a race track? . We as mankind have also produced many positive amazing things as well. So the less you participate in the negative is a matter of learning and inquiry, and with the world on fire we can move into less harmful positions in life and not condemn all of us or all of mankind. Do no harm psychologically is not a bad place to start. .Is it to any of you? What do you think ?

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I think most of us are all Familiar with Method training for professional actors? Are you? only I am not certain we all know we are method actors, producing our own pretension, as a solidified personality and version of psychological reality as a ME? .

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Is it a problem that our role, our image our public identity is so precious?

I sometimes feel like its the most important issue - which might not be a problem most of the time - in fact maybe it actually helps? In terms of gaining respect for example.
But it does seem to get in the way at times - in dialogue for example

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I say defense psychologically is absolutely necessary in society because so many believe destroying their neighbors reputations is important to their lives. Do you see that too? . Insane human beings like Netanyahu, Putin, and Trump, Alito and Thomas, Castro, communists in China and Cuba, Ayatollahs in Iran, Kim Jong UN, the Taliban like evangelicals teach their children that winning at all costs in everything in life, is more important than how we win.

Only the most intelligent human beings realize that any insane human being attacking them anywhere destroying their reputations must not be allowed to win in life. Only the most barbaric, dishonest narcissistic, and insane survive in life, is the root of insanity and if you want that belief to endure believe falsely we should never defend ourselves from psychological character attacks that diminish our chances for survival. Intelligence does not assert a strategy of non violence, or non defense on a divided planet. A planet where most leaders in power grow too old to govern and go mad, winning at all costs.

Precisely like all the insane serial killers in war religion and politics. Rotting from the inside out who believe in winning at all costs. Very often alleging they are only destroying peoples lives for the greater good. A clever defense that does not work out too well, is not the same as an intelligent defense that does. It is more important to see that for yourselves, than believe a rigid pattern about anything in life like non defense, or non violence or anything else that ties your hands behind your back.

See too the most insane can pummel you to death, destroy your business, steal your property, turn your family against you. Those who accuse you of false things, and destroy your reputations in society by calling you any false nasty psychological labels are not to be tolerated unless they have no power personally, and only blow smoke in life. Most do not but some can influence others to help them destroy you and your lives by spreading lies.See to Intelligence is not a burden it is a non inhibited gift of the innocent heart in life, that generally acts without the borders of thought, or mere cleverness in life.

See to that even in hindsight it is hard to determine whether memory helped us, or luck, or insight? Defend yourselves from real threats of any kind. Not from personal paranoia. Real threats are anyone that believes in winning at all costs, or doing terribly wrong things for the Future, or greater good against you personally and others for our nation, or our particular religion, or any envy jealousy, ambition, hatred, fear ill will, or ideology.Turn the other cheek, makes us all blind idiots. This is all general and no one can tell you a right pattern or method to be lucky and always win in life, and when to defend or not, or what to do, how to live rightly without being in your shoes in life. Ponder these things for yourselves.

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Waoh! I’m surprised at this take. Of course I think that too much power in the hands of particular individuals is dangerous and needs to be addressed as best we can - Facts and Democracy over Lies and Dictatorships for sure.

But in my everyday life with the people I meet (in person or online) I kind of get the impression that our psychological defense mechanisms are usually already ramped up quite high - I don’t get it : do you think that we are able to communicate freely in most cases? I get the impression we spend a lot of energy preserving our self image in discussion - at the expense of the issues actually under discussion.

Are we speaking about the same issue here?

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Having a well defined role and image within one’s tribe was probably essential for survival for most of our history as a species.
In the modern world today, being part of the proper in-group is probably still highly important for one’s mental wellbeing.

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Humans are programmed to react as programmed towards the image they have of you - how you are treated will depend on your public image.

Are we also reacting mechanically towards our own self image? Or are we aware of this whole process taking place within each of our minds?

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What are we defending is the issue? Are we defending beliefs or an image of ourselves that is a fiction? Look what horribly narcissistic human beings can do and are capable of doing to you in order to destroy you and your lives, and loved ones lives if you disagree with them? Or make them uncomfortable with your questions if they have some traditional power in life? Don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t defend ourselves? Is that not also the only response we should ever have to turn the other cheek when someone says never defend ourselves psychologically? Never do anything is told to us by human beings doing everything they can to get us all to follow them including what they tell us not to do. Do you see that every authoritarian is a hypocrite? The psychological never do this can be found in every religious book on earth ever invented to make slaves of all of mankind!! So; just following the book that trained trumpeters give us as a deities conditions, is all we have to do? books that make you/'us their supporters and mere slaves to book rules in life they do not follow, and only preach themselves? They also make you/us their financial supporters in life and most of them live better lives spreading poison and forgiving your leaders and wealthy for exploiting you than you their financial supporters.
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The fact remains that you/we/most are paying them to lord it over us as workers, and the poor while they live comfortable lives, forgiving, and mingling, colluding, with our more wealthy trespassers, and traditional institutions full of predatory abusers at the top of their scams. Forgiving our Trespassers. Their higher ups Mingling with the apex alpha predators, that exploit us, while we slave away in life. So we are merely supporting abusing morons, lying to us about truth telling. Telling you to pray to gods, their ancient bigots invented that were never alive . So no Don’t defend yourselves or defend yourselves should come from you directly in awareness and not because of a belief that you should, or you should not technically, or act when slandered falsely. I hope that is more clear. It is your responsibility as an individual to act or not act in life, not a belief that is invented to control you and preserve traditional exploiting groomed authorities trumpeting childish children’s books. Telling you/us how to live rightly. These teachings are not about how to live rightly they are about individual inquiry, and learning how to think for ourselves, not think alike and conform. Not about how to follow or lead but how to think and see clearly in life what programmed thought has done to all of us as mankind, not just the alien others, but most all of us are programmed in similar, but divisive childish ways. ponder on these things for yourselves. Never do this, and always do this, is part of a mental straight jacket in life.

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I guess you already know that the actual problem is not those of one sign or another exploiting ignorance, but ignorance itself, isn’t it @Dano?

Now, what is that ignorance that seems to need to listen to one or the other, acting on the basis of beliefs of any sign that others will exploit to create division and conflict for their own self-interest?

So if I may ask: do you really think that holding one more political rally in a Krishnamurti forum, out of the thousands of rallies that are held daily in the world, will solve the problem of ignorance and its exploiters… or on the contrary, will it continue to aggravate it, creating even more division?

:thinking:

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