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Widdershins ...?

  1. Consciousness arises from matter?
  2. Matter arises from consciousness?
  3. Both?
  4. Neither?
  5. Could you repeat the question?
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Hi Viswa. :slight_smile:

Yes, something like that.

Vedanta says that consciousness (atman/brahman) is the source, and material objects are mithya, different forms of the same source, the One. Western science says that consciousness is an emergent epiphenomenon that arises from material causes and effects. Buddhism (kind of) says both and neither.

I keep moving between these views, some days I’m more Advaita, some more Buddhism, some more science. And then of course there’s Jiddu Krishnamurti … so many flowers, each with its own beauty and power!

How about you?

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Who or what chooses?

I know, this is an annoying question, the kind of question Advaitins raise when they are forced into a corner. But that doesn’t mean it’s an invalid or useless question. On the contrary, I think it goes to the heart of the path and mumukshutva:

Do we have a choice: Dwell in samsara or go beyond it?

What do you think?

Yes we have.

And so I see - there are two kinds of Vedas - one is ‘Karmic’ and other is ‘Upanishads’.

Karmic is always present too. To satisfy the materialistic angels/lord/bhutas - to get what we ‘want/desire’. Enjoy the desire and dwell in it. This universe is open for that too. But it is bound to three modes. Passion and ignorance are dominated in this ‘Karmic’ choice - and so sufferings is inevitable - and again another form of desire can be dwelt in. It’s all upto one’s choice. No force on it as the ‘One’ is compassionate as a mother cares.

But if one totally realizes that - first choice is only limited - and in a urge to seriously feel the actual beauty/bliss - then choice-lessly it takes up - going beyond the Karmas.

This is the totality.

This who is nothing but ‘self’ which is ‘ignorant’. It chooses what it needs.

The desires or the bliss.

Yes, this is why I mentioned mumukshutva earlier on: the yearning, the intense urge for liberation from suffering and samsara. It’s like the fire that drives the body-mind ‘engine’ to do what it has to do to transform. In this regard, I am a typical 21st century Westerner: feeding myself a steady stream of pleasure, which dulls the yearning for liberation, lessens the fire. You otoh seem to have strong mumukshutva … true?

! :slight_smile: Amazing. You are infused with Krishna. :slight_smile:

We cannot experience brahman, but everything we experience is brahman.

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I read mostly secondary books (bhashyas) about the Upanishads. I stay with texts by Shankara or similar traditional Advaita Vedanta writers. My favorite living Vedanta teacher is Swami Sarvapriyananda.

My biggest impediment to true lasting change is, I think, my relatively low mumukshutva. Though I am deeply interested in spiritual teachings and have done a lot of hard work studying and contemplating them, I think that it is largely pleasure that drives me, the thrill of new knowledge and insights. I am more of a passionate tourist than someone who is willing to take up residence in a different world.

Thanks for asking.

I am familiar with and very fond of the Yoga Vasistha. But, like most ancient Vedanta writings, I need to be ‘in the mood’ before I can study it. Typically I am very critical when I read philosophical and spiritual texts, but when it comes to something like the Yoga Vasistha, I need to be willing to surrender. :slight_smile:

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Maybe! I’ve had my fair share of pain and suffering and learned quite a bit from it. But there’s a part of me that seems to have learned nothing at all, seems frozen in time/development. Calling Dr. Freud! :wink:

No I don’t think it’s that. It’s more of a garden-variety neurosis, a form of arrested development where part of me refuses to budge from a psycho-emotional position I fell into during childhood. In America this is a very common thing, everyone I know would admit to having such places of psychological stuckness, most can talk about them quite fluently. I wonder if it’s different in India where you grew up?

It is probably healthy for children to find out from their parents that suffering is a part of life and to learn good strategies for getting through the pain with minimal damage. This approach embraces reality. Neurotic approaches, like trying to hide suffering from children, embrace fantasy and magical thinking.

In my (strange) country, America, some (many? (most?!)) live more of a fantasy than realistic life. We are encouraged to do this by friends, media, the ‘post-truth’ Zeitgeist. If you don’t like how things are, change them … in your head. Believe crazy conspiracies if it makes you feel better. Call anything you disagree with ‘fake news.’ Drink alcohol, take drugs, watch tv, have sex … whatever it takes to forget.

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Be careful mixing Krishnamurti with Hindu teachings, they are totally different. Krishnamurti made sure not to use traditional Hindu words and terminology. Krishnamurti teachings have nothing to do with traditional Hinduism, Hindu Teachings. Brahman, Lila, Chitta, Atman, Gunas, karma, etc do not appear in his teachings. Krishnamurti did not teach Advaita Vedanta and had nothing to do with it. Just refer to his convos with Swami Venkatesananda to confirm.

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@viswa, @nobody

Please be advised that this focus on organized religion has gone beyond tangential reference and is now bordering on violating the forum guidelines.

If you want to continue the discussion in this vein, please do so via a personal message.

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Sorry, I didn’t realize speaking about organized religion was a violation of forum guidelines.

Could you please post a link to the guidelines so I can study them?

Thanks!

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Hi @dev

Thanks for the remainder - to stick to guidelines. I always forget - while deeply involved in discussions - and speak with all like friends,brothers,sisters,parents like conversations - by forgetting “I’m a member of this forum”.

Yes, I will continue this in private message and stick to the guidelines.

Thanks. Sorry for the trouble.

Hi @DavidS

In my view (I don’t know about others) - that Vedanta,Buddhism,K’s,etc… has only words differ - but essence are the same.
When we totally understand the teachings - it looks the same.

But, those messages had to be done in private - and shouldn’t have confused other readers.

Thanks. We will stick to K’s words.

Thanks. I’m happy to stay within the guidelines.

Viswa, just fyi, it was coincidence about my post appearing and then Dev posting what he did about the guidelines I was not trying to stop you from discussing but was sharing my understanding, I personally forgot myself about the guidelines here. I was just sharing as a Krishnamurti student for many years, about the dangers of mixing Krishnamurtis teachings with Hinduism, especially Advaita Vedanta. They are not the same, as per Krishnamurti, himself. If interested, read the two exchanges between Krishnamurti and Swami Venkatesananda from “Awakening of Intelligence” if you are interested. Those two dialogues clarify Krishnamurtis approach to Vedanta and Hinduism. Much respect to you, Sir, and carry on with your passionate inquiry and questioning.

Some still have a lot of hindu religious conditioning in their background. K suggests you drop it, all of this religious knowledge and conditioning and look afresh, as if you were not a Hindu or Buddhist, etc. Conditioning is a burden, a weight on one, and prevents seeing things as they are. This was Krishnamurtis great gift to the world, he tried to speak without further conditioning you and at the same time, freeing you from the conditioning you have. Take care

Everything is god’s play - but we have a choice to
Is it a choice?