Who's Driving the Bus? Thought or Awareness?

Kinfonet Discussion
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Bohm: Thought invented us. It uses us. We have not learned to use it as an instrument, except in a limited way.

Q: Isn’t thoughts only real problem the notion that there is ‘somebody’ who is thinking?

Bohm: That is so. But it’s quite hard to get at, because it seems obvious that there is a thinker. - 1989 Ojai Bohm Seminar

Bohm: Thought runs you. Thought, however, gives the false information that you are running it, that you are the one that controls thought, whereas actually thought is the one that controls each of us.

Bohm: We’ve said that when we have a thought, it registers in the memory. It registers in the form of a reflex.

Bohm: We have this picture of someone inside us who is given all this information and then decides to have the intention to do something based on that. I’m suggesting however, that that is not so.

Bohm: I’m suggesting that if you try to touch the self, it will be the same difficulty as trying to touch the rainbow.

Bohm: If we had an insight right away into all this - that the observer is the observed, as Krishnamurti often said - then it would all evaporate. The point is we have resistance to that insight. - Thought As A System

K: Now when you look at yourself as an ego, the self, the self-centred entity, what is it? Actually, what is it? Is it the name, the form, the shape, the idea, the concept, the image? Right? That is the ‘me’, with all the tendencies and all the rest of it. Essentially it is the product of thought. Do you see that? - Saanen July 1979

K: This consciousness is the consciousness of all human beings. If you feel the depth of it, the extraordinary beauty of it, the strength of it, that you are the rest of mankind, that it is a fact, and when you feel it in your blood, in your heart, in your mind, then you are no longer an individual.- Mind without Measure

Bohm: We are saying that thought is not merely the intellectual activity; rather it is one connected process which includes feeling and the body, and so on. Also, it passes between people - it’s all one process all over the world. - Thought As A System

K: Is it possible to have a total insight? It is only possible - we went into that step by step - which is the ending of the ‘me’, because the ‘me’ is put together by thought, thought is time, ‘me’ is time - me, my ego, my resistance, my hurts, all that. Can that ‘me’ end? It is only when that ends there is total insight. Right? That is what we discovered. Right? - Ojai April 1980

**What actually determines human behavior? Is it a collection of limited past thought imagery, in the form of an ego, a self-image, a centre, or, an awareness of what is?

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Due to the fragmented nature, a total insight is different to awareness.

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**So, what would an intelligent response to this fragmented nature be? If you or I ‘see’ this, do we have any responsibility to share this with our fellow human beings? And if so, is just telling them enough to actually share the insight?

JK: The world is not different from me.
DB: The world and I are one.
JK: Yes. And that is real meditation; you must feel this, not just as a verbal statement: It is an actuality. I am my brother’s keeper. - The Ending of Time

K: When one observes what life is with its enormous complexity and intricacy, not only in the economic and social spheres, but also in the psychological sphere, one must ask oneself, if one is at all serious, what part one is to play in all this. What shall I do as a human being living in this world and not escaping into some fantasy existence or a monastery? - You Are the World

**What shall we do, as human beings?

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Looking at all this fragmented nature is a meditation.

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**Thanks for the response, but what does that mean? How do these nine words address the house on fire? How does it address today’s Krishnamurti online quote?

K: Can the mind bring about security, physical security, which means food, clothes and shelter for everybody? Not as a communist, capitalist or socialist, but meet together as human beings to resolve this problem. It can be done, but nobody wants to do it because they don’t feel responsible for it.

from Dialogue 6 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 20 February 1974

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It is not addressing any quotes, and I would have thought it is obvious I am talking with you, and with the questions asked.
“So, what would an intelligent response to this fragmented nature be? If you or I ‘see’ this, do we have any responsibility to share this with our fellow human beings? And if so, is just telling them enough to actually share the insight? What shall we do, as human beings?”
Isn’t it a bit odd, not even seeing your own questions? Doesn’t this get at the very matter in the posting? We look to the content of thought, give precedence to thought, and all its displays, even disregarding the very nature of the questioner, and the underlying psychology of the questions.

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**I know we’re talking with each other. That’s why I asked you, What does your statement mean? I asked previously, “what shall we do as human beings,” and you responded with, “Looking at all this fragmented nature is a meditation.” So, what does that mean? I could say, “Looking at a sunset is a meditation.” What meaning does saying something is a meditation convey? That’s a question from me to you. I’d like to understand your point.

**You lost me. I don’t see my own questions? I know I asked “What shall we do, as human beings.” I see the question I asked, but I don’t see how saying something is a meditation relates to the question. I’m asking for some sort of clarification of your meaning, if possible.

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What is thinking? Is it the verbal response to words and ideas, working with the words within a verbal context? Is it trying to make sense of what is unknown with the known? That may be the thoughts, attitudes, plans, etc., occupying the mind, but it is not thinking. Is there a way to get past the thoughts, or is this more thought occupying the mind? Meditation, looking at the busy mind, aware of all the thoughts, stresses, tensions, impulses, distractions, etc., there is a space for learning. Not the accumulation of words and ideas, and thinking this is getting to meet your needs, it is undoing the mess, and discovering a different understanding.

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**Thinking, it seems, is something we do now. And thought, appears to be abstract impressions of past experience. As the words you wrote are being read, the brain seems to be processing the words according to the understanding of the language. That’s the way I would describe what thinking appears to be. It actually seems that the brain is what does the thinking, it connects the present sensory input with the stored knowledge. That’s what it seems to be. I’m not saying, “This is the truth,” I’m saying that’s what thinking seems to be. Then there’s something called observation, which is different than that.

**What do you mean, get past it? Do you mean not thinking? Or do you mean observe what the thoughts are pointing to. To attend to what is? And is there an 'I" that would "get past it, in a projected future?

**Yes, simply observing what is occurring, choicelessly, seems available to each of us.