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What is the self, the I, the me?

Kinfonet Discussion
#1

What is the self, the I, the me? Does a ‘self’ have feelings? Does an ‘I’ choose? Does a ‘me’ fear death? Does a ‘me’ have feelings? Do concepts have feelings? Do thoughts “choose?”
Are we aware, as human beings, of ‘what thought is doing’, when the brain projects thoughts implying that thought is “choosing” or “avoiding” something?
What is a ‘self-image’? Isn’t it thought imagery? Do psychological images choose? Or are they simply ideas that humans confuse for truth?
If the brain projects the idea that the “self fears death,” or, “the ego defends itself,” or, “I choose,” why do we take such nonsensical thought-stories seriously?

K: When you have gone through all the layers of the self, its inmost nature, its essence, is nothing. You are nothing.
Public Talk 5 in Madras (Chennai), 7 January 1978

#2

When there is a fear of death, in that moment, that emotion is me.

#3

**Where do you ‘see’ this ‘me’? A thought may occur in consciousness, and an emotion may be felt in the body, but where is this ‘me’? Does it exist in the absence of thought?

#4

I don’t think so :rofl:

PS. What about during this discussion? Are we both here?
When you read these words, how many are we?
Are you reading my words? Is there identification? Is there dogma? Intent?

#5

The appearance suggests that it is two human forms typing on computers. Words are being read and typed, but they don’t belong to some abstract thought of a ‘me’ or ‘you’. On this portion of the relationship there’s a clear ‘intent’ to inquire, to observe. As this system of thought flowing through human consciousness, the ‘divisive psychological conditioning’, is likely to continue to create conflict and disorder until the falseness of this abstract imagery is seen clearly as the limited abstract imagery it actually is.

#6

What is both the self and is not a self. Self because each of us have the same experience and not a self because the essence of the experience is of the same womb. Common to us all is awareness. Krishnamurti said the content of consciousness is consciousness, I would like to say the content of awareness is awareness and the finite idea of self is both awareness and its content. Yet when the finite idea of self ends awareness/consciousness goes on, it is not of finite time, it is the ever aware, timeless
‘I am’

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#7

Is this “intent” not conditioning the relationship with what is seen ?

#8

**No, it stems from a seeing of the urgency. The disorder, or incoherence, is not “outside.” The incoherence is internal. And if we, humanity, don’t observe ourselves in relationship, the incoherence in the system of thought will continue to produce similar disorder “outward.” It’s the conditioning, the psychological beliefs, that make a “problem” out of an intention to observe together.

#9

**In the observation of our responses, isn’t this response an example of a psychological belief that keeps the mind occupied with thought imagery, never dying to the known? Thought says, “If” this happens in an imagined future, “when” this happens in an imagined future. Doesn’t this illustrate how thought moves away from what is?

K: It’s a supposition again, “If I did this, this would happen.” One can talk like this endlessly. We are trying to go into the issue involved. Saanen - Aug.1966

#10

Because we’re not observing our own behavior. When we watch and listen to ourselves, we realize that our thinking is confused, contradictory, incoherent, and that it revolves around our self-image, a fictional character that has to be defended, repaired, revised, renewed, or replaced with an authority that is chosen, which is even more absurd.

#11

Hello Howard

Yes it’s very easy to get entangled in the dimensions of time created by thought. If im correct, it’s been ten years now since I have read him. Kristamurti said if I’m correct there is no methodical way out of the traps that thought creates, okay maybe not Krishnamurti’s exact words but I think the essence is here. There is only out! All at once, a complete exposing for example that there is no fear of death because once resting outside of time there is no life and death just the eternal now. This now can have the happening of a book of time and a self taking place within its pages or the book can be nonexistent, either way it is the light of awareness that gives all this the quality of illumination and hopefully by chance the recognition that Awareness, consciousness, the observer and the observed are all the one, make a concession here, its YOU. Anytime we try to point we are requesting a concession do to the fact the formless has no form, no space or time so silence is it’s best description. That is why it is said those who know do not know or Its a journey from here to here or No place to go and no one to get there. I have always liked: From the first not a thing is. Awareness/consciousness is not a thing although as you pointed out most of the time it is mistaken for one and the ride begins, an imaginary ride.

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#12

**So, in observing what thought is doing, is it a fact that “anytime we try to point we must be requesting a concession?” Does one actually know this? Do we know someone is “trying to get a concession?” Is it not possible to simply ‘point’ to what is being observed, now, without having any expectation? Our “past experience” may reflect humans generally looking for concessions, but does this experience than become psychological knowledge, another belief, that the ‘I’ acquires, which comes out as an asserted belief that “all future suggestions must be the same?”
With regard to no place to go and no one to get there, the questions is, “Is this seen, or just another psychological idea that appeals to the ego-thought-structure?” There may be no place else to go, but that doesn’t mean that ‘what is’ doesn’t call for a response.

#13

Howard
" With regard to no place to go and no one to get there, the questions is, “Is this seen, or just another psychological idea that appeals to the ego-thought-structure?” There may be no place else to go, but that doesn’t mean that ‘what is’ doesn’t call for a response."
Most often your right, no place to go and no one to get there is picked up by thought and organized into the self image becoming. I remember Krishnamurti story of the devil behind a rock watching two angels walking, one stopping to pickup something it was truth he was picking up which made the devil pleased because he knew he would organize it.
I sense we both understand the emptiness of awareness/consciousness when there is no content as form, its the same as what we experience as awareness during deep sleep, there is the experience of the absence of content.
Here is the kicker: Krishnamurti rightfully said the content of consciousness is consciousness for me that is the same as saying the content of awareness is awareness. That would mean give me a concession, that the formless body of awareness has two states and in a sense one. One state that of unlimited forms and the other a stateless state like in the case of deep sleep. The self of time belongs to the content giving rise to what we call the ego shell and we have taken this content and shell to be ourselves and by its very nature will end, the fear of death and all that. And yet it ends each night, we look forward to it without fear knowing it can be picked up again. The sense here awareness like in the ox hearding pictures, a deciple following footprints in the snow around a large Boulder. One day the deciple, awareness, recognizes its own footprints and says: Thats is me leaving the foot prints. It is me asking non-existing questions looking for non-existing answers all in the name and support of a non-existing self. Why? Why is a question, it is the door which psychological time lies on the other side. (Why) assumes existence and non-existence are uncreated states. It is being said here that awareness when it is identified with being its true nature is all seeing, and is present to witness the birth and death of all concepts even that of a separate self and even any image it may give its self. It knows it is the light of its own creations and has no object form. I heard it said once in this amazing way. At night we may dream of being a great Warrior and when we awaken we know it was only a dream. Yet in the day we may dream that we are a great philosopher and have all this figured out and never realize that we are still dreaming. In between both these dreams Is where I am truly awake as long as it is left unorganized Lol.
Such a pleasure Howard.
One was not attempting to be an authority but was just attempting to share what it was like when coming upon ones own footprints.

#14

Hello Lanroh - Wondering why you call the ego-thought-structure a “shell?” That implies, possibly, some sort of ‘covering’, with something inside it? But this ‘structure’ appears to be nothing more that a collection of psychological theories, all stored in the brain, in thought, as, “what ‘I’ believe.”
I question that this self of time ‘ends’ each night, as it appears that it’s merely a case that when the body is actually sleeping, the memory is simply dormant. The memories haven’t ‘ended’, they’re simply not active in sleep. Do you see something different than that?

**Awareness, it seems, is simply awareness. Where do you see awareness “identifying” with anything? Identifying seems to occur in thought. I don’t know about this “all seeing,” unless you mean ‘open’ to whatever may appear? Awareness seems to be synonymous with mind, silence, meditation, love, etc. So this openness would not exclude any appearance, is seems.

**Very poetic! I tend to stick with the simple descriptions like, the word is not the thing. The ‘thought stories’ are not the actual. Or, whatever we say it is, isn’t. What is, is not found in abstract memory, abstract imagery. But it’s observable. And what appears in choiceless awareness is, no-separate-thing. No-thing.

**Likewise…thanks.

#15

Howard
You really do ask great questions and articulate your thoughts well. I said ego shell in the sense that if awareness had an owner it would be the whole universe. Your right awareness does not pick and choose, its ability to illuminate can be likened to the sun which does not pick and choose what gets its light. The essence I sense of unconditional love. Back to the ego shell, I say shell or enclosure or temporary identity do to if not in error, awareness forgetting its the whole and not a fragment known in these circles as the separate self. I’m so and so, im a doctor, a male with a wife and children born in such a place. Like in the night dream of being a worrior I must forget temporary that I am a doctor to take on the dream life of being a worrior. Like wise awareness must temporarily we hope forget that it is but one aperture where the universe looks back at itself in order to believe that it is only the limited framework of the Dr’s identity. Really one is the whole and the Dr is a fragment. Let me say from the understanding one is the whole, the whole can express its self focusing in on being a Dr when needed and not forget that its true nature is the universe, the whole coming back to see its self through a mirror housed in a perceived fragment. After all is anything really separate from the whole. I must be hard to follow, I’m not gifted with your gifts of articulation.
The poet Rumi said " My roof has been torn off". And an old Buddhist master proclaimed: " My cloths are all tattered and blown away by the wind". Rumi and the master both had something in common as their psychological clothing was blown away by the wind of enquiry. The sense here is that there was a moment where the shell, the walls fell down, the psychological roof was torn off and rushing in was that which can never be contained and yet all containers precipitate from its womb and nothing is separate. There can be the realization that one for the lack of better words is a child of the whole birthed for no other reason but to look back at its self and realize its self. “I am that!”
I heard it said once that the limitless must forget its unlimitedness when the limited such as a separate self has been introduced. Forget because the unlimited cannot really ever be limited in truth, its very nature is unlimited. So in the fragmentation of becoming a Dr the cost was a part of the whole sleeping yet in many a case like the members here there is a whisper of a distant memory of the whole being greater then the part.
Excuse so many metaphors I find them sometimes the only way to express such things.

Howard, if your still interested in our exchanged maybe we can pick this up after this weekends holiday.