What does it mean to learn?

[anon78228991]

@nobody

Doubt can be applied universally, the doubter can doubt their doubting.

Doubt implies hesitation, being careful, watchful. The past has no such quality because it comes in very quickly and has a lot of images behind it. The past is not just a cold conceptual construct; it has its own movement and energy; it is both the experiencer and the doubter. The past is you; you are the past. So you cannot apply doubt. You can apply only your knowledge, which in relationship means the application of many images.

Can I watch and listen without motive? I don’t apply anything at all to the question, certainly not doubt. The answer is doubtful when it remains purely conceptual, which for most of us is an acceptable form of answer. But we have at this moment only the question.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

When I’m out walking my dog on a long leash, letting him gambol, sniffing amongst the bushes with no tension on the lead - is he free? Maybe he is a little bit free? nearly free?

I would say that he’s physically and psychologically free to roam within a limited physical and limited psychological area. Freer than leashed, but not 100% free.

What is the me/the self?

It appears to be the entity that ‘presides over’ my body-mind. What it really is, if it really is … I don’t know!

[macdougdoug]

@nobody

What it really is, if it really is … I don’t know!

Do you have a sense of self? Does it feel like you are a special entity, in the center of existence?

@nobody

I would say that he’s physically and psychologically free to roam within a limited physical and limited psychological area. Freer than leashed, but not 100% free.

I hear you saying he feels free - or he doesn’t feel confined - but that he is not (100%) free.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

@nobody

What it really is, if it really is … I don’t know!

Do you have a sense of self? Does it feel like you are a special entity, in the center of existence?

I feel I am the center of my existence.

@nobody

I would say that he’s physically and psychologically free to roam within a limited physical and limited psychological area. Freer than leashed, but not 100% free.

I hear you saying he feels free - or he doesn’t feel confined - but that he is not (100%) free.

I’m assuming that dogs, like humans, have limited psychological freedom. A dog might be free to roam wherever they want, but be afraid to be too far from their master.

[Inquiry]

@Peter

react and want to give an obtuse opinion.

As demonstrated here.

[Inquiry]

@macdougdoug

I take it you don’t believe the self ever ends then?

Probably all of us here believe (hope) the self ends; we are selves hoping for redemption, absolution, freedom, though we honestly don’t know whether it ends, or what that might actually mean other than relief.

[Inquiry]

@nobody

What is the me/the self?

The terms and conditions, the beliefs and values, which confine and define one.

[macdougdoug]

@nobody

@macdougdoug

Do you have a sense of self? Does it feel like you are a special entity, in the center of existence?

I feel I am the center of my existence.

So we are in agreement that this feeling - which we call self - exists?

@nobody

I’m assuming that dogs, like humans, have limited psychological freedom.

So we are in agreement that our freedom is limited?

Is this issue really up for debate? : we are controlled by our sense of self.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

So we are in agreement that this feeling - which we call self - exists?

The feeling exists, yes.

@nobody

So we are in agreement that our freedom is limited?

Yes.

Is this issue really up for debate? : we are controlled by our sense of self.

Identifying with what we take to be the self, feeling that the self is who we really are determines lots of what we think and do and feel, for sure.

Where does that leave us?

[sivaram]

@anon78228991

But when we say to each other, ‘I really don’t know what to do,’ does this need further elucidation? And I really don’t know. Therefore I drop altogether any thoughts about the right action.

What is the relation between insight and right action?

[sivaram]

@nobody

Why would someone choose to learn about disappointment if doing so causes them pain?

Hii nobody,

I see that learning about the disappointment will takes place in everyone automatically.

[Peter]

@nobody

And I agree, that’s a powerful motivator. But not the only powerful motivator. Joy is also a fire.

I am talking about distress and not knowing what to do. There is no motivator.

[Peter]

@Peter

They will not make a fuss about some word, some definition, when the context actually provides the meaning, if they did not react and want to give an obtuse opinion.

@Inquiry

@Peter

react and want to give an obtuse opinion.

As demonstrated here.

This reaction is not seriously talking together. Nothing in the least to do with “What does it mean to learn?”

[macdougdoug]

@nobody

Identifying with what we take to be the self, feeling that the self is who we really are determines lots of what we think and do and feel, for sure.

Where does that leave us?

Surely that entirely depends on who we are - as in where we have been conditioned to be left.
My reaction to the situation is dependant on how I have been programmed to react. We have no choice in the matter, the hand is the puppet. (or in kinder, grandmotherly terms : the observer is the observed)

[rickScott]

@sivaram

@nobody

Why would someone choose to learn about disappointment if doing so causes them pain?

Hii nobody,

I see that learning about the disappointment will takes place in everyone automatically.

Hi sivaram, you were gone for a long time!

Feeling disappointed happens in everyone automatically. But learning about that disappointment? Please share what you mean by learning.

[rickScott]

@Peter

I am talking about distress and not knowing what to do. There is no motivator.

It might be possible to be distressed and at the same time motive-free. I find it more likely that motives are there but not seen.

[macdougdoug]

@nobody

But learning about that disappointment? Please share what you mean by learning.

Seeing what disappointment is, not running away or trying to avoid it or trying to find solutions to it.

@nobody

@Peter

I am talking about distress and not knowing what to do. There is no motivator.

It might be possible to be distressed and at the same time motive-free. I find it more likely that motives are there but not seen.

If I don’t know what to do - then maybe I will be motivated to gain that knowledge? But what if I realise that distress is implicit in knowledge?
Then I really don’t know what to do - what am I motivated to do then?

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

@nobody

@sivaram

I see that learning about the disappointment will takes place in everyone automatically.

Feeling disappointed happens in everyone automatically. But learning about that disappointment? Please share what you mean by learning.

Seeing what disappointment is, not running away or trying to avoid it or trying to find solutions to it.

Sivaram spoke about a learning that was automatic. What you describe is not automatic, at least not for people who haven’t trained themselves to introspect in a certain way.

@macdougdoug

@nobody

@Peter

I am talking about distress and not knowing what to do. There is no motivator.

It might be possible to be distressed and at the same time motive-free. I find it more likely that motives are there but not seen.

If I don’t know what to do - then maybe I will be motivated to gain that knowledge? But what if I realise that distress is implicit in knowledge?
Then I really don’t know what to do - what am I motivated to do then?

Something to lessen the pain.

[macdougdoug]

@nobody

Sivaram spoke about a learning that was automatic.

Sivaram will have to say what he means - at a guess he just meant that the subjective experience of disapointment will automatically come to us all.

@nobody

Something to lessen the pain.

I suggest opium - Sorry, but do we want to understand or escape? If you are following carefully, you should at least have grasped that escape only leads back to you.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

@nobody

@macdougdoug

I really don’t know what to do - what am I motivated to do then?

Something to lessen the pain.

I suggest opium - Sorry, but do we want to understand or escape? If you are following carefully, you should at least have grasped that escape only leads back to you.

(Opium sounds delightful, if there were a den near me I’d give it a go.)

Regardless of whether attempting to lessen the pain works or fails, if I were in a lot of pain, that would probably be my top priority, to lessen/stop it. That just seems like common sense to me, why would you do otherwise? (Unless, of course, you were a masochist, but then the pain wouldn’t really be pain, it would be pleasure, right?)