What did Krishnamurti mean by Nothingness and Emptiness?

I have taken some extracts on the topic of nothingness and emptiness from two series of dialogues that Krishnamurti had with David Bohm, from 1975 and 1980, to give a rough idea of what they meant when using those words.

They also talked about nothingness in a series of dialogues from 1984 that have not been published (because they were recorded during meal times and the audio quality is very poor). If I find some extracts from that dialogue I might share them later.

Something to watch out for is that in the 1975 series they use the word ā€œrealityā€ to mean the world created by our thinking - they do not mean the actual world of nature, people, the universe, etc.

Limits of Thought (1975)

K: This reality is empty. This reality is nothing.

When the mind is empty, when the mind is nothing, not a thing, in that there is perception.

Therefore truth is nothingnessā€”not a thing. The action of nothingness, which is intelligence in the field of realityā€”that intelligence being free and all the rest of itā€”operates in reality without distortion.

So a mind that is empty, nothing, is capable of the seeing which is the doing; and the doing is truth and so on.

Sir, reality is a thing. Truth is not a thing, therefore it is nothing.

There is only one energy. There is only one energy which is used in reality and therefore is destructible, perverted, deteriorating, degenerating and all the rest of it. That same energy is nothingness, nothingness being death. Yes, sir?

DB: Right.

K: I thinkā€”I am just hesitating to put it forthā€”that the energy born of nothingness is nevertheless different from the other.

DB: But is there some unity, some connection?

K: I think there is a one-way connectionā€”that is, from nothingness to thing; but from thing to nothingness is not possibleā€¦

We say nothingness means ending; that is, not a thingā€¦

the love in nothingness can act in the world of reality, but it can never be polluted in the field of realityā€¦

in nothingness there is no measurement.

you come along and say to me, ā€œThere is a state of nothingness.ā€™ You say that, and it is tremendously true to you. And it means dying, all that, not a thing in oneā€™s mind.

Does this answer, sir, that beauty, goodness, truthā€”the purity of itā€”is in nothingness?

So there must be a sense of non-being, there must be a sense of nothingness. When there is choice in awareness, then it is not.

So if the mind, going through all this, comes to absolute nothingnessā€”nothingness being not a thing in itā€”that is more than summation of energy; it is far beyond!

Therefore the next question is: can this consciousness be completely empty of its content? Which means, there is nothing inside it, nothing created by thought, by circumstances, by temperament, by imagination, by
tendency, by capacity.

DB: When you are aware of the environment, thatā€™s not what you
mean by ā€˜nothing insideā€™. In other words, that includes still an awareness of the
environment.

K: Of course. Here there is nothing. Is that possible? Is one imagining it?

In nothingness there is no movement at all. But it has its own movement as energyā€”whatever it isā€” which then can operate in the field of reality.

The Ending of Time (1980)

K: it is nothing.

DB: No thing.

K: No thing. Thatā€™s right [laughs].

DB: A thing is limited, and this is not a thing because there are no limits. . . . At least, it has everything in potential.

K: Wait, sir. If it is nothing, and so everything, so everything is energyā€¦

the fact of it is there is nothing; therefore there is everything, and all that is cosmic energy. But what started this energy? ā€¦

Then is one just walking in emptiness? Is one living in emptiness?

DB: Well, that is not clear.

K: There is nothing, and everything is energy. What is this [points to his body]?

DB: Well, this is a form within the energyā€¦

K: Does it mean then that there is only the organism livingā€”which is part of energy? There is no K, no ā€œmeā€ at all, except the passport, name, and form, otherwise nothing? And therefore there is everything, and therefore all is energy?

Has mankind journeyed through millennia to come to this? That I am nothing, and therefore I am everything, and all energy? ā€¦

The ending is the beginning, right? Now I want to go into that. You see, in the ending of all thisā€”the ending of time, we will call it brieflyā€”there is a new beginning. What is that? Because otherwise this seems so utterly futile. I am all energy and just the shell exists, and time has ended. It seems so futileā€¦

We have said that when one denies time, there is nothing. After this long talk, nothing means everything. Everything is energy. And we have stopped there. But that isnā€™t the endā€¦

Letā€™s begin again. There is the ending of the ā€œmeā€ as time, and so there is no hope; all that is finished, ended. In the ending of it, there is that sense of nothingness, which is so. And nothingness is this whole universeā€¦

We said nothingness, that nothingness is everything, and so it is that which is total energy. It is undiluted, pure, uncorrupted energy. Is there something beyond that? ā€¦

There is something beyond that. How can we talk about it? You see, energy exists only when there is emptiness. They go together.

DB: This pure energy you talk about is emptiness. Are you suggesting there is that which is beyond the emptiness, the ground of the emptiness?

K: Yesā€¦ There is something beyond emptiness. How shall we tackle it? ā€¦

DB: This thing beyond, would you also say it is alive? Life beyond emptiness, is that still life? Living?

K: Living, yes. Oh, yes.

DB: And intelligent?

K: I donā€™t want to use those words.

DB: They are too limited?

K: ā€œLiving,ā€ ā€œintelligence,ā€ ā€œlove,ā€ ā€œcompassionā€ā€”they are all too limitedā€¦

What is beyond emptiness? Is it silence?

DB: Isnā€™t that similar to emptiness?

K: Yes, that is what I am getting at. Move step by step. Is it silence? Or is silence part of emptiness?

DB: Yes, I should say that.

K: I should say that too. If it is not silence, could weā€”I am just askingā€”could we say it is something absolute? You understand?

DB: Well, we could consider the absolute. It would have to be something totally independent; that is what ā€œabsoluteā€ really means. It doesnā€™t depend on anything.

K: Yes. You are getting somewhere near it.

DB: Entirely self-moving, as it were, self-active.

K: Yes. Would you say everything has a cause, and that has no cause at all? ā€¦

Emptiness and silence and energy are immense, really immeasurable. But there is something that isā€”I am using the word ā€œgreaterā€ā€”than thatā€¦

Can Iā€”or youā€”say the ground exists? The ground has certain demands, which are there must be absolute silence, absolute emptiness, which means no sense of egotism in any form, right?

Let us go further. Then there is total emptiness.

DB: Well, emptiness of that content. But when you say total emptiness, you mean emptiness of all this inward content?

K: Thatā€™s right. And that emptiness has tremendous energy. It is energyā€¦

You see, I think meditation is a great factor in all thisā€¦ true meditation is this: the emptying of consciousness. You follow?

Am I willing to face absolute emptiness? ā€¦

I am willing to let my past go completely. Which means there is no effort or reward or punishment, no carrot, nothing. And the brain is willing to face this extraordinary and totally new state to it of existing in a state of nothingness. That is appallingly frightening.

DB: Even these words will have their meaning rooted in the past, and thatā€™s where fear comes in.

K: Of course. We have understood that; the word is not the thing. My brain says it is willing to do that, to face this absolute nothingness and emptinessā€¦

May we go on? I, as a human being, have seen that this insight has wiped away the past, and the brain is willing to live in nothingness. Right? We have come to this point several times from different directions. Now, letā€™s go on. Now, there isnā€™t a thing put there by thought. There is no movement of thought, except for technical thought, knowledge, which has its own place. But we are talking of the psychological state of mind where there is no movement of thought. There is absolutely nothingā€¦

Now, what is the next step? Does that emptiness contain nothing? Not a thing?

DB: Not a thing, by which we mean anything that has form, structure, stability.
K: Yes. All thatā€”form, structure, reaction, stability, capacity. None of that. Then what is it? Is it then total energy? ā€¦

Now, we say that emptiness has no centre as the ā€œmeā€ and all the reactions. In that emptiness there is a movement of timeless energyā€¦

We said that this emptiness is in the mind. It has no cause and no effect. It is not a movement of thought, of time. It is not a movement of material reactions. None of that. Which means is the mind capable of that extraordinary stillness without any movement? And when it is so completely still, there is a movement out of it. It sounds crazy!

Sounds like K is talking from his own witnessing. Who else in this forum has witnessed this silence, emptiness, absolute nothingness?

Not me (or it certainly doesnā€™t feel that way)

As I said on the other thread What is Awareness? - #243 by macdougdoug

I am wondering what It means to experience space - as I, and other objects would be absent.
I can only speculate that experiencing emptiness can also mean : being totally aware of the fact that the things I experience are my own projections (?)

This silence/emptiness, has been accessible to humans for millennia and shown up described by various world religions as ranging from cosmic emptiness to a state of potentiality before existence. Kā€™s words ring true to those who have been there.

If each moment leaves no trace, is replaced without resistance by the following - if we are not stuck in one experience chained to a past moment (aka a chain of events, maybe starting from when you did something I didnā€™t like for example) - can that be considered the ā€œemptying of consciousnessā€?

Or must we arrive at a state where we can not recognise any objects?

So here I am at a state where I canā€™t recognize any objects. Iā€™m hungry and itā€™s getting dark and I donā€™t recognize anything that appears to be food, or anything that looks like a place to lie down and sleep. Is this Hell?

Sounds horrible!
Just to be clear 1) Iā€™m not trying to sell this state as the best state & 2) In your description there are various entities (its not empty) - for example, one important object is the hungry self, the approaching darkness, a need or 2 and some possible fears (quite a few objects are recognised and seem to be important)

By silence and emptiness, I donā€™t think Krishnamurti meant absolute nothingness, but consciousness of the nothingness of self, ego, made clear by the absence of psychological content.

If ā€œconsciousness is its contentā€, our content, the fusion of practical and psychological content is our problem, and the absence of psychological content is the solution.

So it seems to me that Krishnamurti was not saying that this ā€œemptinessā€ is total emptiness, but the emptying of psychological content because to be without the brainā€™s practical content is to be effectively unconscious.

Without practical content, one doesnā€™t know anything and may as well be a new-born baby in a mature human body. Maybe this is what many people imagine transformation of the brain is, but is it practical?

To me ā€˜Nothingnessā€™ has always meant that we arenā€™t ā€˜thingsā€™. As in ā€œno-thing-ness. (Not a material body) His description of us as being ā€œnothing (not-a-thing)ā€ points at us being something ā€˜finerā€™ ā€¦ like awareness. Awareness is not-a-thing. That, what we actually are, and always have been, is awareness, pristine awareness, not attached to any ā€˜thingā€™, to nothing (no-thing). And as such, and as only always thatā€¦you actually are ā€œthe worldā€.

Yes, if a living thing is anything, it is its response to what itā€™s aware of.

When a living being is conditioned to believe in what doesnā€™t actually exist, the being doesnā€™t just respond to awareness but reacts to it. This conflict between what is believed to be true and what is actual, is ā€œresolvedā€ by distorting or denying what awareness reveals.

What is the difference between ā€˜just respondā€™ and ā€˜reacts toā€™ awareness?

Are you saying that the brain because of its conditioning cannot ā€˜respondā€™ to what is because it is constantly ā€˜reactingā€™ to how it has been conditioned? ie., as an observing self divided from what it observes?

One way of differentiating between the 2 is in terms of acting from an awareness of the situation in its ensemble (ie. as a whole, considering all parties), as opposed to acting merely from the processes driving this center.

In other words : from a complete vision of the situation (which includes an awareness of my wants and fears), rather than merely being mechanically driven by those wants and fears.

Or being interested in what might be occuring itself ie. outside of what ā€œshould beā€

For example : when talking to a flat-earther, rather than berating them for not being as I think they should, actually being interested in what is happening. Thus responding to the situation and the parties involved, rather than reacting from the discrimination, from my fear and distaste.

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Iā€™m saying that conditioned response is reaction. The conditioned brain is incapable of direct perception for more than a second or two because its psychological content reflexively conflicts with actuality.

YOU ARE NOTHING
You are nothing. You may have your name and title, your property and bank account, you may have power and be famous; but in spite of all these safeguards, you are as nothing. You may be totally unaware of this emptiness, this nothingness, or you may simply not want to be aware of it; but it is there, do what you will to avoid it. You may try to escape from it in devious ways, through personal or collective violence, through individual or collective worship, through knowledge or amusement; but whether you are asleep or awake, it is always there. You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes. You are not related to it as a separate, individual entity; you are not the observer watching it; without you, the thinker, the observer, it is not. You and nothingness are one; you and nothingness are a joint phenomenon, not two separate processes. If you, the thinker, are afraid of it and approach it as something contrary and opposed to you, then any action you may take towards it must inevitably lead to illusion and so to further conflict and misery. When there is the discovery, the experiencing of that nothingness as you, then fear - which exists only when the thinker is separate from his thoughts and so tries to establish a relationship with them - completely drops away. Only then is it possible for the mind to be still; and in this tranquillity, truth comes into being.
(J.Krishnamurti; excerpt fromCommentaries on Living-Series 1; Chapter 38, ā€œSelf-defenseā€.)

So if this nothingness includes fear, that makes it something, doesnā€™t it?

You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes.

Iā€™m choicelessly aware for as long as it takes my conditioning to react, which is immediate or delayed by a second or two.

You are not related to it as a separate, individual entity; you are not the observer watching it; without you, the thinker, the observer, it is not.

If Iā€™m not related to ā€œthis nothingnessā€ as a separate entity, and Iā€™m not the observer watching it, and it doesnā€™t exist without me, the thinker, the observer, am I nothingness because l am imagined?

You and nothingness are one; you and nothingness are a joint phenomenon, not two separate processes. If you, the thinker, are afraid of it and approach it as something contrary and opposed to you, then any action you may take towards it must inevitably lead to illusion and so to further conflict and misery.

So when I realize I am what I believe, think, imagine I am, I am realizing that what seems to be is nothing but seeming until seen for what it is.

When there is the discovery, the experiencing of that nothingness as you, then fear - which exists only when the thinker is separate from his thoughts and so tries to establish a relationship with them - completely drops away. Only then is it possible for the mind to be still; and in this tranquillity, truth comes into being.

So I am thought thinking I am someone in a relationship with thought, and when I realize this, I am nought.

My understanding is, emptiness / nothing does not mean not a thing exist. What K may be meaning is one is aware of everything but no naming or labeling is there which creates a division of observer and observed. There is awareness of this total universe with all things with this body being just one of them not as an individual entity, just totalawarness with no centre ( nothing)

My understanding of being nothing, is being nothing but choiceless awareness, direct perception, and intelligent response; being without the false sense of I, me, mine, and all the madness that follows from that illusion.

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Arenā€™t we both the ā€˜silent, eternalā€™ implicate and the ā€˜noisy, messy, temporary, explicate? The ā€˜foamā€™ of the waves and the ā€˜stillnessā€™ of the ocean? As each and every ā€˜thingā€™ is? K and others are addressing the ā€˜foamā€™, our misery and confusion, the suffering part that is here for only a little while?

Is a human lifespan ā€œa little whileā€? Isnā€™t the ā€œfoamā€ a deliberate misunderstanding of what it is to be what we fundamentally are?

I donā€™t think itā€™s a bad analogy as analogies go but you may be right. The misunderstanding may be the lack of understanding that the ā€˜foamā€™ and the ā€˜oceanā€™ are one?