Isn’t this just another idea? We talked a while ago about the action of showing compassion to someone who is suffering, for example by laying a hand on his or her arm. Does such an action cause harm to anyone? Is the sexual trafficking of people, especially children, a benefit to anyone? Does the brutalizing of people benefit anyone? Obviously I don’t mean “benefit” financially or psychologically.
I do see ways in which life and death are inseparable. The body is simultaneously living and dying at every moment, not only in the process of aging leading to death, but in the process of old cells dying and new cells being born, and so on. And when a body dies, it is still filled with the life of various microorganisms which nourish the earth, which then nourishes grasses which then nourish grazing animals, and the earth nourishes trees which nourish giraffes, and so on. All this is part of mysterious creation. Yes, life and death ARE inseparable. Where there is life, death is inevitable. Where there is death, (some form of) life continues - a tardigrave, a seed, something else. And obviously, this eternal movement of life in all its manifestations has nothing to do with what man determines to be right or wrong. You say that the whisper is pushing you to “rightly understand” things. What then is right in understanding?
There is the “right and wrong”, “good and bad” which are determined by thought. But there is another kind of right and wrong which is whispered to us by compassion. When one sees suffering, pain, the whisper informs us of whether the act committed is right or wrong. Can you watch someone mutilate a person or animal and remain unmoved? Every single day brings us news of new atrocities committed on adults and children, on animals, tribes or nations. Does it not matter? I’m not saying that one should or shouldn’t take up arms but, as a simple fact, isn’t there an action of compassionate suffering on witnessing these things? That response itself is action. and no forced action is necessary. Taking up arms, becoming an activist, and so on, is not necessarily action. True, spontaneous action is not a part of the cycle of violence, as I see it. But true, spontaneous action might be violent.
The truth is that, for me, killing is not always “wrong”. Wild animals of prey are hunted by tigers, hyenas and men. Wild predators have no health plan or social network and so they sometimes die in agony from infection, disease and starvation, just as hunter-gatherers do (or did). That is their (and our) lot in life. But isn’t it one thing to die in agony having lived free, and another to live one’s whole life shackled and brutalized and then die in agony?
But that doesn’t mean that anything goes, that there is no right and wrong. If there is no right and wrong, is there any difference between the selfish, greedy, brutal dictators and those who feel pushed to understand?
Do you equate the suffering of plants to the suffering of sentient beings?
In the end, I don’t know if talk and verbiage are necessary for understanding. What IS necessary is silence.
Yes, let’s observe our reactions, but without assuming the initial reaction is more important or actual than the subsequent reactions. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, it’s not a done deal.
I think my initial response was shock. Cognitive dissonance: This can’t be happening! Fear was part of the response, but not that much. If I lived closer to Ukraine or had family there the fear would probably have been stronger.
But we do have relative answers, from pundits, philosophers, military strategists, protestors. And these answers all have a degree of correct-ness within their contexts, i.e. relatively. What we don’t have is The Answer, either a sure-fire solution or a universal moral imperative. The relative answers all offer part of an understanding and/or solution.
Yes. Compassion harms another. Compassion gives comfort to another, and continuously seek such comfort from many people as experienced from Compassionate one. Compassion does not let one go through sufferings, because I see by only going through sufferings, deep seriousness and inquiry and understanding happens, which is blocked by compassion. Though it benefits one physically, it harms one psychologically.
Yes. Sexual trafficking is a benefit physically. Actually this bodily hormones, it’s way weird. Very much hard to control the need of sex. If a man couldn’t get a woman to have sex, sexual urge increases and creates frustration. This frustration leads one to involve with Children in Sexual trafficking, because of refusal by woman or because of incapability to seduce a woman, and sex trafficking satisfies this frustration and urge.
You know, there was a ‘tradition’ of “Devadasi” in India. According to tht tradition, some selected women of very young age, like someone near to puberty, are given away as a donation to a temple to satisfy the physical urges of any men, so no frustration happens. Their culture were way beyond one’s thinking. It actually puts an end to physical urge, benefits one’s suffering to have sex, and so he then easily engage in day to day affairs. But, in other way it harms the child, as no freedom for her. Yes. But, for the sake of the nation - to set actions take place at right time, this kind of donation to temple happens.
It actually benefits one, and so after that act one easily concentrates in day to day actions, but not remain frustrated of keep on thinking “I couldn’t get one” and that force him to pick forcibly others. That force, satisfies his urge but harms other. No man can work in a society, when that urge is present at that moment. Kama, is very powerful.
What do you mean by brutalizing? Beating and kicking others? Yes, it gives pleasure to one who beats. Gandhi says, if one beats you, show him another hand and satisfy his pleasure - benefit him.
Benefit and Harm is all about “Pleasure and Suffering”. No righteous action in this world, and even if something said as right, it’s all according to pleasure, and that pleasure must be derived by harming some other. This is law of Nature.
You are right. Right, in the sense, puts it accurately. It pushes me to understand things not ignorantly as a ‘memory’ - but understand, in the way things are understood.
Yes. Remove the word “Right”. You are right. Just to Understand things as it is, it pushes.
Nope. You misunderstood me.
I didn’t said I won’t move. I say, even if I move, if I want to make him understood, I have to harm him. Without harming him, one cannot understand what he really does, mutilating.
Whatever action you do try to make him understand his actions, it brings benefit as well as harm too. It’s not a right action that only creates benefit. But, it is just another action, creates both benefit and Harm. If it is Compassion or etc., doesn’t matter. You may feel sorrow for him/animals/child/adults/etc., but whatever action arise out of that Compassion, also does Harm and Benefit.
It’s really a serious point. But, you see, maturity and seriousness in time of death, understanding and Truth realization - happens not to the one who lives free, but only to the one who gets shackled and brutalized. If you really watch those serious persons who gets brutalized and dawns understanding, they won’t die in agony but peacefully, but the one who lived free by brutalizing someone - doe’s very much in agony for being his attachment to all his life in deriving pleasure from brutalizing.
Yes, there is difference. Selfish and greedy, lives without understanding and caught in “good and bad” actions. But, one who understands this “good and bad” - remain peaceful. Though Selfish derive pleasure, he also suffers. But not the one who understood things. No actions affect him/her. He/her not incline to any right/wrong action, and just remain peaceful whatever happens, let it be rape - let it be War - let it be Peace - Let it be beautiful relationship - let it be a beautiful flower - let it be a dry flower - let it be an ugly shit - etc., Not at all moved by right/wrong actions, and so whatever feels to be done - not feeling it is right/wrong - as one truly know every action has harm in itself as much as Good, so remains Peaceful.
It’s only the need of Right action, pushes one away of remaining peaceful. It’s only the need of “good things by eradicating bad things” - creates frustration and sufferings, and pleasure when attain it but it won’t last long, as whatever one thinks as Good has an harm in itself and troubles one of that harm - so pleasure won’t last, realizing all this one is free…
Freedom from actions. Freedom from right/wrong. Freedom from Mutilation. Freedom from Compassion. Freedom from Love. Freedom from hatred. Freedom from whatever thoughts.
Freedom from everything…
Yes. No difference. Equal sufferings. There is no superior and inferior species. We have five senses and Mind, and animals have one or two less, plants not have Many.
But, that does not indicate that, WE (HUMANS) or sentient beings are superior to plants.
Life is Life. Harm is Harm. Small or Big, whatever it may be.
It’s only one’s ‘identification’ of “I am Human” creates far superior attitude. It’s not so. Humanity is just another kind of species, who can understand things. Sufferings is same for Sentient Beings and Plants. Plants have consciousness too. If not, it wouldn’t have seeked water by going deep. It searches for water, and reaches it out by finding a nearest water availability, for it’s survival. It reaches out for sunlight, if it is in shadow, and strive for it’s survival.
Say, Humans Mutilating Animals. But, do you see Cats mutilating Mouse. How much fear Mouse goes through at the time Cat plays with the Mouse?? Do you know how much sufferings and fear the buffalo herd go through in the attack of Lion??
Why not convert a Lion by showing Compassion towards it to not Mutilate something, and become Vegetarian??
All this Animal senses are in Human too. Human won’t understand when he acts like an animal, because the animal sense dominate in him.
Understanding brings Silence.
There is no such thing as Right action. I’m sorry. When I understood this thing about action, it brought a big fear and “What!!!??” arised in me.
But, it’s Nature. Nothing is Good or Bad here. And every action is supposed as “right or wrong” based on if it benefits one or Harms one.
That’s why many Sages include Buddha didn’t tried to stop war, only accept serious disciples to show them the understanding, and took up a limited action life, and not an action ever to change Humanity of War.
Even Many serious King, understood that, and do actions for action sake but not as “this is right action and gives only right results”. If it is war raised by a greedy nearby king, they fight. If people remained Peaceful in getting all desires, even then not moved by that too. Just remained peaceful, not at all reacting to any actions, and clearly understood every response is a benefit and a harm.
You know, they sanctioned death to rapists but not moved by it. When their Kingdom fall, their woman were abducted and that too didn’t moved them, like harm to wife of Pandavas didn’t moved Yudhistra. Whatever Harm happens to them/family/Kingdom, don’t create suffering in them. Whatever Benefit/pleasure happens to them/family/Kingdom, not move him away from Peace.
They remain peaceful in the midst of actions. Some remained Peaceful by withdrawing oneself to Mountains/forests/etc.
Ukraine here means war and this war happens because the Russian dictator invaded an independent country on the basis that he didn’t want this country to ever feel tempted to be part of NATO, etc. I don’t hesitate for a moment to decide about who is wrong and feel absolutely disgusted to find that so much power has been concentrated in the hands of such a dictator. As Krishnamurti put it ‘the house is on fire’, that is, human civilization has gone so far as to be able to destroy this world in no time if power remains in such hands as those of this dictator. He must be stopped not by any means (so, not acting like the dictator) but by the rules of international law, as soon as possible. In Sri Lanka, maybe beginning of 1950, Krishnamurti was confronted by an important politician named dr. Perera and their exchange is recorded as ‘I am that man’. Here Krishnamurti was clear, he would rather become a martyr than be subservient to a regime which he coudn’t comply with. Yes, there is a difference between democracy and totalitarianism, there is no hesitation about what to choose (if you want, ‘choiceless awareness’ will do its job here).
A perfectly reasonable reaction to the situation, imo. I especially like the appeal to international legal consensus rather than “Burn the witch!” irrationality. The first part of this video brings home quite nicely the danger of knee-jerk revenge mentality: https://youtu.be/46bzpo2fPTw
Dan - true insight IS the understanding of the movement of self.
The problem is that ‘thought’ has been made the enemy. Whereas in fact, thought in its place as technical thinking negates psychological thought as the self.
Technical thinking is essential for the brain to function.
Technical thinking, in its place, is not divisive, as it is mitigated by pure perception - where the self cannot exist.
Sorry to say gma, but one is skeptical as to your understanding of the nature of compassion. It literally means love of all. Compassion is not an action that one can choose to do. It can only be felt when the other is in sorrow. It is extraordinarily rare. On another level, it is the reason why Krishnamurti did all his talks, the reason why the Buddha spoke, and the reason why Charley was able to end the cycle of birth and rebirth and considers herself an arahat, and is no longer caught in a cycle of psychological suffering. Compassion is the only thing that can bring human beings together.
This is a most horrid statement. Charley is female, and finds this statement to be sexist, misogynist, and quite unconscionable. Women are human beings. And men who do such things are nothing but animals, who really are incapable of love, let alone of compassion. Men who do such things to girls as you suggest are nothing but pedophiles, and should be locked up. All such damage has occurred because of traditions, and organized religion is the culprit, which has remained pretty much silent in the face of such awful behaviour. To use another to satisfy one’s lust encourages so much violence in the world. It also implies that one is a slave to one’s lust.
All of the Buddha’s talks were about right action, so as to create a foundation of goodness in a human being. So, again, one sees that you have no understanding of what the word “good” means.
You are Right Charley. I don’t deny anything you said here. It’s Violence.
But, when you said they must be locked up, it’s also Violence. Can you see that? You are harming him for the benefit of Society, for the benefit of female/children. Right?? Yes, he harms society. But as a punishment, you harm him. This is what I try to point out. No action in the world happens without harming someone/something.
I don’t deny that Sex Trafficking harms. But, on the other hand even in that harm, it benefits him, he gets satisfaction/pleasure from it. This is what I say.
Every action - have both benefit and Harm in itself.
Again you are right Charley. Compassion is very rare.
You see people suffering and Compassion arise in you/me. Right?? What happens next? An action to protect them or help them or some kind of action happens.
Say, Out of Compassion to Ukrainians, we blame Putin. In this action, Putin is harmed for the benefit of society/Ukrainians/Humanity. Without harming Putin, can the action be born out of compassion occur?
Hmm…Whatever Buddha said as Right action is all for Enlightenment, and not for how to act in society.
He said to renounce the world and become a mendicant and not involve in samsara, as right action.
His meaning of right action, is to control our desires and refrain from world for Enlightenment, to put an end to sufferings, and not for “How to live in world - what is the right action in society”.
In case of society, there is nothing as “No harmful action”. Any action harms another. Good action harms bad people. Bad action harms good people.
Even if it is God’s action, it harms Demons. Here is Harm too. No action has “Only 100% Benefitting thing and 0% harm thing” in this world.
Yes. Compassion brings together. But, you know what happened from Buddha and K said in another hand?? People renounced the world out of Buddha’s sayings, without knowing it’s true essence. They took up Sanyasa, felt much sufferings in practice more than in Samsara life, couldn’t continue and died and also came back to Samsara life. Buddha done another Harm. Shankara understood this harm, and stood against it that no need of renunciation to attain enlightenment. But, that too has done another Harm though it benefitted India, it’s a different topic.
Yes, K did talks out of Compassion. But, you know, He harmed Politicians and Priests and Philosophers and Religious followers. There too harming happens though it benefitted not only you but also me.
Every action, has a harm in itself as much as benefit.
It’s Okay. Like how you are now, I was in that situation too. It didn’t made any sense to me, when I felt it first time. But later on, Understanding came about all actions. That’s what I feel as “Truth Hurts”.
Alright, then what happens in you as you watch those people?
The initial reaction is usually the one we miss because it is the reaction that occurs before thought comes in to tell us what we should be feeling and how we should behave. This is what I am trying to get at and explore. We do seem to be making a meal of it. When they are killing other people, for whatever reason, one doesn’t just listen with no emotional reaction to the sounds of war. Cognitive dissonance is alright if we are playing Wordle, but there is surely something else much deeper taking place even before thought starts to wake up and confuse itself.
Are you willing to put aside all of these stories? Whether they are your own or someone else’s stories, are you able to face and look at what is happening without any form of fictional protection?
For technical thought there must be ‘becoming’, there must be ‘time’. It takes time to produce, bring about what it plans to create. But ‘psychologically’ thought brings this becoming as if there is something to be created, achieved, etc. And an ‘entity’, a ‘me’ that must bring this about. As you say, no such entity exists. Only this misplaced stream of thought / time…flowing in the “pattern” of a ‘self’.
