Why you say i’m missing something? - could you show me what i’m missing to see/listen?
You say “viswa has personal want here”?
So we should look at this deep belief? It seems our feeling and storing them up is then only a means to fullfill this deep belief. The belief, that there might be some eternal pleasure, as you said. What is a belief? It can only be there when I already know what to believe in. So it is again connected to knowledge. Knowledge in itself is always changing, in the way that is never complete, whole, in that sense eternal. There will always be new knowledge enlarging what I already know. So we use that to find the eternal. Can this work? Obviously not, otherwise we or humanity would have found it yet. So is this belief, that there must be an eternal feeling of pleasure or security the problem? Is it our unwillingness to see that life is change that lets us hold to knowledge and the belief through it we will find salvation?
Dear Viswa, that reply was not meant to you, I was answering something Paul wrote. Forget it. I just replied to you. Excuse me, I hit the wrong button.
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No you are missing the point. Is your wanting more important than meeting anything, anyone? You are the one who wants here something. Face the facts.
Exactly - i can show you something how this knowledge and belief works.
When there is pain in my life - someone comes and says - “Join our religion - you can be out from pain”. I don’t have belief/knowledge - but i join as he wishes. While i’m joining - there is “joining ceremony, songs, dance, money, business, etc…” which provides me pleasure at that time - and stored as knowledge - and from the knowledge - i started to believe that - “there is God and i follow what the religion/priest says - without observing/inquiring”.
So this thing of temporary pleasure is the seed of ‘deep-belief for eternity’.
Yes. So - we can see that “it doesn’t work and we can’t find salvation in this physical universe”.
Now in this observation ‘deep-belief’ of ‘eternal physical pleasure’ ends.
So now i’m alone - when this ‘deep-belief’ in form of thought arises, i’m choice-lessly aware that “There is no such thing” - so no ‘want for something’ and ‘no suffering’ follows.
I’m alone and aware always.
That’s it.
As long as this is not again just knowledge and an idea. Our conditioning to hold on to knowledge is so strong, that it tries endless ways to decieve us. Can we be aware for that happening? Which would imply not to seek something.
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If our observation is very serious, clear and actual - then there is only awareness.
The thoughts tries to deceive this ‘awareness’ - but we aren’t in ignorance anymore.
Then there is no psychological difference between “you and me”. Only shadow is ‘ignorance’. and there is only “Love/Compassion” for all - to show them their ignorance - but it’s upto them to ‘observe’ or not.
No driving for ‘sex/security/pleasure/etc…’ i.e. No Desires and No sufferings - Just go on with the flow of life - like a river.
And we have to ask us, is it a fact? Has suffering ended? Or is it just a wish. Do we really change, at the root? Now. We can only find out for ourselves.
Yes - no one can help us to find out.
Only one can see his ownself.
And,
“K said there is no karma,devotion,heaven,hell or purgatory. These are all imaginations”
I don’t know K caught in belief or not - but I can see that he is frustrated of the teachings of followers and so he may have believed that “there is no such thing and only imaginations”
And so - I’m in search of - what Dante,Buddha,Krishna,Jesus,Allah,sages,religions,etc… said about “Karma,bhakthi,three worlds” are true or not.
So we seek truth then? But can truth be known? Is that what I know true? That is an interesting question.
You ask seeking truth about the 'karma,devotion,etc…?" Or “choice-less awareness/love/compassion/etc…?”
Truth in general, we seek truth, the ultimate whatever that may be.
Truth in general not a ‘knowing’ thing -only seeing the “whole movement of ‘I’” one can see the truth.
But what I meant to find truth about “karma,heaven,hell,devotion” is that K might have failed to see it because of the followers and may have believed that “it’s only imaginations”.
And so I’m in search of these words “karma,etc…” what truly mean - to find out “what all religions say is true or imaginations”
Dear Viswa, but are you then not again back into the old cycle of knowledge? If truth is not a knowing thing you will not find it in this search, because all religions are knowledge.
This devotion,karma are not truth - they are just words - but there may be meaning for those words - which the followers couldn’t see it.
Truth is unlimited. This karma,heaven,etc… are limited. I’m only searching for a limited thing and not truth(unlimited)
I neither believe that “karma,heaven,etc… Exists " nor believe that " they are just inventions” and so I’m in search of it - though it is limited - because the followers may mistreat the word “devotion” which may have some actual meaning.
So, I couldn’t assume as K did that they are only imaginations.
The religions may have been exploited by the followers. It’s not to revive them - but to see what those words actually point out
K may have wrongly felt about ‘devotion’ because of his frustrations about the way of the followers in theosophical society or other sects or other followers
The question to me is, what does devotion mean?
No - it’s something I personally need to find out. Because many religions stress this ‘devotion’ is an easy ‘path’ to unlimited - which K may have failed to see/feel - because of corrupted/unreal/fake priests/gurus/followers. K also felt that - no one couldn’t (or one/two can) understand what he said - in a worried manner. So in my view - his observations/teachings couldn’t be actually felt as it is for many - and his teachings became some form of intellectual pleasure these days. And so I’m eager to find about this ‘devotion’ - and if there is ‘actual devotion’ in this universe - that may serve the needy.
We can leave that aside.
And continue from here,
So - is everything we observed/inquired in this discussion - became an idea or you see that ended as a fact?
That is what we have to observe. But can it have ended when we seek to find out if K was right or wrong? Is this really important? And whatever you will find, will you ever know if he was right or wrong? We could only speculate, because he is not there anymore to ask him directly.
Yes. Speaking/speculating about K - distracts - I can now see and I learn that.
So how we are going to see that “suffering ended as a fact?”
- is there a method or comparing with something? or
- how it feels when it ends?
How or a method cannot help us because then we are caught in knowlegde again. I think there is probably only a simple question: Do I still suffer? And if I should do, do I face it? Do I face it, observing my thoughts, my reaction? Do I percieve myself as I am now, suffering without wanting to be any different? Or if I realize, I want to be different, want not to suffer, do I stay with that wanting which is knowledge, thinking? Can I be so attentive? Because even if I may have understood suffering, my organism and brain might still react on this deep conditioning which has been there, because it takes the physical longer to step out.