And we have to ask us, is it a fact? Has suffering ended? Or is it just a wish. Do we really change, at the root? Now. We can only find out for ourselves.
Yes - no one can help us to find out.
Only one can see his ownself.
And,
“K said there is no karma,devotion,heaven,hell or purgatory. These are all imaginations”
I don’t know K caught in belief or not - but I can see that he is frustrated of the teachings of followers and so he may have believed that “there is no such thing and only imaginations”
And so - I’m in search of - what Dante,Buddha,Krishna,Jesus,Allah,sages,religions,etc… said about “Karma,bhakthi,three worlds” are true or not.
So we seek truth then? But can truth be known? Is that what I know true? That is an interesting question.
You ask seeking truth about the 'karma,devotion,etc…?" Or “choice-less awareness/love/compassion/etc…?”
Truth in general, we seek truth, the ultimate whatever that may be.
Truth in general not a ‘knowing’ thing -only seeing the “whole movement of ‘I’” one can see the truth.
But what I meant to find truth about “karma,heaven,hell,devotion” is that K might have failed to see it because of the followers and may have believed that “it’s only imaginations”.
And so I’m in search of these words “karma,etc…” what truly mean - to find out “what all religions say is true or imaginations”
Dear Viswa, but are you then not again back into the old cycle of knowledge? If truth is not a knowing thing you will not find it in this search, because all religions are knowledge.
This devotion,karma are not truth - they are just words - but there may be meaning for those words - which the followers couldn’t see it.
Truth is unlimited. This karma,heaven,etc… are limited. I’m only searching for a limited thing and not truth(unlimited)
I neither believe that “karma,heaven,etc… Exists " nor believe that " they are just inventions” and so I’m in search of it - though it is limited - because the followers may mistreat the word “devotion” which may have some actual meaning.
So, I couldn’t assume as K did that they are only imaginations.
The religions may have been exploited by the followers. It’s not to revive them - but to see what those words actually point out
K may have wrongly felt about ‘devotion’ because of his frustrations about the way of the followers in theosophical society or other sects or other followers
The question to me is, what does devotion mean?
No - it’s something I personally need to find out. Because many religions stress this ‘devotion’ is an easy ‘path’ to unlimited - which K may have failed to see/feel - because of corrupted/unreal/fake priests/gurus/followers. K also felt that - no one couldn’t (or one/two can) understand what he said - in a worried manner. So in my view - his observations/teachings couldn’t be actually felt as it is for many - and his teachings became some form of intellectual pleasure these days. And so I’m eager to find about this ‘devotion’ - and if there is ‘actual devotion’ in this universe - that may serve the needy.
We can leave that aside.
And continue from here,
So - is everything we observed/inquired in this discussion - became an idea or you see that ended as a fact?
That is what we have to observe. But can it have ended when we seek to find out if K was right or wrong? Is this really important? And whatever you will find, will you ever know if he was right or wrong? We could only speculate, because he is not there anymore to ask him directly.
Yes. Speaking/speculating about K - distracts - I can now see and I learn that.
So how we are going to see that “suffering ended as a fact?”
- is there a method or comparing with something? or
- how it feels when it ends?
How or a method cannot help us because then we are caught in knowlegde again. I think there is probably only a simple question: Do I still suffer? And if I should do, do I face it? Do I face it, observing my thoughts, my reaction? Do I percieve myself as I am now, suffering without wanting to be any different? Or if I realize, I want to be different, want not to suffer, do I stay with that wanting which is knowledge, thinking? Can I be so attentive? Because even if I may have understood suffering, my organism and brain might still react on this deep conditioning which has been there, because it takes the physical longer to step out.
So Erik,
This question of “whether suffering end?” ends this discussion - as there is no answer/statement/fact to see this- and it’s left to one to find out / observe it as a whole - as you said.
We can’t inquire together anymore - and only observe our own self.
Quite right. 
So let us observe.
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Desire generally implies a journey, the search for something one lacks, something that is missing from one’s life. There is the sexual desire for completion and fulfilment; the emotional desire for release and security; and there are all the various forms of intellectual desire for the achievement of understanding and for the recognition of that achievement. These are our psychological journeys and they all take time, every one of them. But when we look very carefully and patiently at the root of desire and learn about the implications of seeking satisfaction through time, we see that most of this process, if not all of it, is an image-based movement. Unable to bear the image of where I am, I escape through the image of a better place, of becoming a better person, of attaining a better state of mind. So even our understanding of the truth we have made into an image-based affair: to see it, capture it, remember it and then share it from that remembrance. The sharing then is merely the sharing of just another shabby image; it has no spark of humanity about it. In this process, I have become so associated with the remembrance and so attached to the image of what I have found, that it is now impossible to detach myself from those fragments.
Love is not remembrance. Therefore there is absolutely nothing to share. And is love possible from the start? It has to be because it cannot take time. The moment it takes time to love another human being, one is caught in the whole field of desire for fulfilment through experience. Love is not an experience. Love is not pleasure. Love destroys images. Love is now or never. So the moment you want it, you have it. Otherwise, it is not love; it is just another form of desire. When you have rejected everything that is not love – the images, the manufactured pleasures, the escapes from what we really are in our relationships – then there are no longer any fragments to cling to and life is a blessing, an eternal benediction.
There is no contradiction in wanting you to love me because in wanting this I am asking for nothing else from you. There is no hidden agenda. But if this is still all a mystery or a jumble of words, just ask yourself what it is that you want from me. What do you want from me or from anyone else here?
I am glad for you that your life is a blessing and benediction. I do not want anything from you.
Then why are you here?
...... I am gone .......The rest of us are still here. We can carry on.