Yes - for that moment - thought gives pleasure. But it is not joy/bliss.
The suffering is waiting to open up any second.
Thatâs what Iâve heard.
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But is not all of this self-referential in the sense that the thinker knows all about this, so what is the difference between actually observing and the thinker just imagining it is observing, and being satisfied at that? Recording is an automatic process right? which in terms of what we spoke about earlier is in effect an unconscious process the brain is carrying on, but is observation then a conscious process? It canât come from memory or from the content that is consciousness can it, since that would be conditioned and so limited, so if it is an unconscious process how can it really be in my hands?
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Observing âthis whole continuous noiseâ of âIâ, the conditioned mind, is not possible because much of it is unconscious. But you can be aware of your conditioning that is conscious, For instance, your knee-jerk responses and reflexive agreement or disagreement; spontaneous flaring of anger or fear or anticipation; baseless suspicion or support of others, etc. In other words, awareness of and interest in how much of your thinking and feeling is irrational, dubious, contradictory and incoherent.
So - now we get into the âObserver is the observedâ.
When thinker imagining - there is difference between thinker and thought. i.e. Fragmented âIâ observes another fragmented âIâ. Observer is different from observed here. If it does so - then thinker tries to describe or makes a method to control the thought.
But in actual observation - there is no difference between observer and observed. The observation of whole âIâ takes place there. Here whole âIâ means pleasure,pain,sufferings,etcâŚ
Yes. Obviously. Recording is an unconscious process. Observation is conscious process - and it is in our hands. Observation does not comes outside the conditioned mind - Yes. If it comes from outside means - we need some - other agentâs support. So, We are in the conditioned mind - and consciously watch the whole movement.
Observation is not an unconscious process - it is being conscious.
Observation is like standing inside the manufacturing building - and watching the whole process and not part. It is like the supervisor - watching the whole process without any belief/idea/image/knowledge/experience. This supervisor - is unskilled (i.e. 0% of knowledge - like a child). Here the supervisor observes and he is also not different from the manufacturing process(i.e. conditioned mind). When the supervisor is watching - all the employees automatically stop wasting time and continue their work. (i.e. thoughts calms down and stops). Here we not trying to control the employees (i.e. thoughts). Just watching.
After thoughts calms down - what remains there is âsufferingsâ, âfearâ, 'pain, âanxietyâ, âstressâ, etcâŚ
We should throw away all our beliefs/images/idea/experience/knowledge of people/place/object/etc⌠in âobservationâ. You watch like a child. Because, the child doesnât know what he is observing and so go through the whole without describing,controlling,etcâŚ
Hi there.
No. The whole âIâ is not unconsciousness. The feelings are unconsciousness. I donât question it. But the âIâ is all the conditioned mind (i.e. memory,etc.). One can observe. K did. Bohm did.
Yes. You are right. Like this physical response, we can observe - consciously, what happens in the conditioned mind as a whole.
Iâm not asking to see the feelings and stop it. These feelings are unconscious. But what makes to arose these feelings is the conditioned mind. Iâm saying these thought,sufferings,etc⌠is only limited. It has a beginning and it has an end (i.e. limited in time). So one can âobserveâ without any beliefs,idea,etc⌠of all these âIâ.
A free mind âcan âobserveâ without any beliefs,idea,etcâ, but the mind we know, the mind we think of as âmy mindâ, cannot observe without reaction, resistance, denial or denunciation, because it is conditioned to react. It is not free to refrain or reflect. It is under constant pressure to respond conditionally, not appropriately.
The free mind has nothing to lose, so it doesnât have to react. The conditioned mind, however, is reactive because it has everything to lose by not fighting to keep what it has put together. It is its conditioning; its conditioning is all it knows. Freedom is its annihilation.
If youâre comfortable with yourself, you donât want to be free. Youâre content with your condition. And if youâre uncomfortable with your self, you want to be free of the discomfort, but not the identity you cling to and take comfort in.
We want it both ways, so we get neither. Such is our conflict.
So is the observing referred to here the same as consciousness exhibiting an awareness of the fact of itself as conditioned, and of never being able to go beyond itself or transcend itself? And does this limit placed on consciousness also mark the limit of observing, since observing is only ever a word for consciousness seeing the true nature of itself?
If you believe - itâs fact that - the awareness/consciousness is conditioned/limited - then you wonât âobserveâ. But itâs not. Like how we observe a tree - we can - as a child - as an unskilled supervisor. K did it too.
One âcanâ âobserveâ without belief/image/etc⌠- Itâs my view/observation.
If we say/believe itâs conditioned/limited - we canât, then âwe canâtâ.
I cannot push/order/be authority - itâs upto one - to observe the whole movement of âIâ.
If we ârestrictedâ ourself that - no one canât throw off their beliefs/idea/etc⌠to âobserveâ - as the conditioned mind wonât leave to do so - then we are fine with this conditioned life and sufferings. Thatâs it. Nothing more to discuss.
Then we have to accept that we are slaves to âIâ/âconditioned mindâ - and go through all the pain,sufferings in our entire life and âdieâ.
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If learning about the nature and structure of your prison isnât your primary concern, youâre aware of your confinement without awareness of how you are doing it. The jailer is the jail.
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Yes. It is my primary concern and Iâm ready to learn together.
I doubt (itâs not conclusion - i donât know whether it is real) - you âmayâ fixed in a belief/experience/knowledge that, the conditioned mind wonât leave us to be free from beliefs/etc⌠to âobserveâ (i.e. you âmayâ have a âbeliefâ that - we âcanâtâ âobserveâ freely).
If you are not in this belief/experience/knowledge - Iâm happy - letâs learn/inquire/observe together.
But if you have such belief - I donât know how to bring you out from this âbeliefâ.
Till now - we are verbally discussing that - this is free mind and this is conditioned mind. But do we actually âobserveâ the âIâ?
And if you canât âobserveâ - i.e. this âmy mindâ wonât let to âobserveâ freely - okay - personally you tried your best - but you couldnât - itâs fine. But please donât be conditioned that no person can âobserveâ free from beliefs/image/etcâŚ
Could you please say what do you mean by this âlearningâ?
Does this âlearningâ happens in the below form you said?
Is there belief involved here or simply observation? We agreed that sensing, recording are automatic processes the brain is, and the we were looking at observing, and what kind of a process that is, and whether it too is an automatic or unconscious process the brain is or a conscious one, and we agreed that it is conscious, and so a property of consciousness, which is to say, not coming from some magical, hitherto unknown place in the brain.
Now comes the difficult part. The consciousness of mankind is conditioned, and we need to see or observe both the fact of it, and what it actually is as myself. It is relatively easy to be somewhat aware of the fact of conditioning, and to see the effect of conditioning in another, but actually seeing conditioning as myself is a different matter.
The crowd storming the Capitol because they consider someone is trying to take away their freedom, as if they were ever free or understood freedom, or as if the thing depriving them of freedom was not the conditioned consciousness they are, is something they are caught up in. They might benefit by first observing a tree, but we are not all in need of that.
What I see Krishnamurti pointing out is that unless I have a specific phobia around trees, or sunsets, there can be observation of that without undue resistance, which provides a sense of what observing without resistance is, but that observing the fact of my own conditioning is a different matter. So it is the conditioned consciousness which is observing the tree, and can, if it looks, see the tree.
So now the question is, can the conditioned consciousness observe the fact of itself, the way it might a tree, or a sunset? Not, can there be a magically non-conditioned consciousness in a moment like that. We are not observing conditioning to end conditioning, or magically transcend it in the act of observing it, as that is not observing it. We are not ending the tree when we observe it right?
I am saying, given there is the observation of conditioning, what it actually is as myself, and the fact that conditioning cannot go beyond itself, observation is then everything it is possible to be, and there is no requirement for it to be anything else.
Can I observe the fact of conditioning as myself, without the promise that if I observe it I can end it?
Yes. No belief involved here. Simply observation - not a part - but whole/everything.
Yes. Of - course. It sees itself.
Yes. No idea/belief to end or any kind. Simply observe.
So - what is this âmyselfâ? - could you deeply explain what this âmyselfâ consists of?
Sitting quietly, I am aware of thought; memories, recollections, ideas, speculations, dreams, etc. This is not the usual listening where there is a voice, or having ideas, but an awareness of thought, what do we call it? Iâd say they are images. What is this awareness of this mind activity? That is, sitting quietly, like in meditation, what is aware of the thought activity, and other sensations? There is some aspect of awareness that is not thought. Aware of the images, not engaging with the thoughts as in a verbal fashion, there is the visual awareness of mind activity. The verbal tendencies fade, and this attentive awareness goes deeper. It is not a thought process, not an active self, it is a free flow of quiet and lively observation. What is this aspect of mind, that is deeper than thought? I am not looking for an answer. I am making the point there is not the limits of consciousness and not all the preconditions we expect to be met and overcome.
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Here - does the thought gets aware of itself?
Why do you call it thought?
These images comes in form of thought. And this thought to be aware of itself is the awareness you said - Isnât it?
It is something common to humanity, a myself or an I, a centre, from which an other than myself is generated. And that consists of memories which are the content of the consciousness it is, which is conditioned, and which is why observing everything about that conditioning and its formation, in the same way I might observe a tree or a sunset is important. Seeing this whole will not happen when there are blockages in operation, some of which are unconscious, and only realisable as fear which is aroused when the subject is approached in a way that is too close for comfort.
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Why do you say some is unconscious? - what are those âsomeâ?
What are all that âblocksâ observation? - Please list out everything which âblocksâ one.
So - what are our âcomfortsâ - why this fear arouse when subject comes to âcomfortâ?
The some is probably not quite correct since a blockage is ordinarily unconscious, but with a subliminal component in the form of a fear or strong reaction being aroused on the surface of things, and more or less observable to an other at times.
The issue of block and of comfort, as in comfort sought, are intertwined. The human brain is conditioned, and throughout society, which is the invention of that brain, there are in all the arrangements sought and made, the pursuit of pleasure, the avoidance of pain, and the concern or desire to know comfort, and know security. As has been pointed out in various ways, this all goes on regardless of position or status, as in being a pauper or being a billionaire. So it is the inner psychological reality at work here regardless of the specific outer form or circumstance. And this is as true of anyone here looking at these things, as a person with no notion of any of it.
So I can be a billionaire and looking deeply at the fact of attachment, and aware of the fact of comfort seeking, and what drives it, at the evasion and the avoidance of what actually is, and I can be here talking about these things, but still be tied to comfort psychologically, which still acts as a blockage, or forms a disturbance in the brain, which means I cannot look as fully as I might at the fact of conditioning.
When I begin to look at these often used words like condition, or limit, as in thought is limited, and the real psychological, emotional import of them start to unwrap, and associations get formed with condition as constraint, like on a leash, limit as confinement, as in cut off, as in isolated, then looking at these things without the security or comfort that they can ever end, can bring me up against the constraints of my psychological comfort I was not conscious of operating, but which was there all along in my comfort seeking ordinarily.
Why ordinarily, do I seek or even believe in the power of comfort any longer, when I am looking at conditioning in the round. This has nothing to do with anything I specifically am or am not, have or donât have, it is to do with whether psychologically, comfort is even a real thing any longer, and when it is, what part the preservation of that plays, in respect of a brain that is quiet enough to look at fear, isolation, or anything that comes up.
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