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Kinfonet Discussion
142

Thought, knowing oneself, right action:

  • “Thought cannot look at the ending of itself. It can only rationalize about it.”
    K, Exploration into Insight, ‘The Central Root of Fear’

  • "Q: … consciousness… does it ever see anything for itself?”
    K: No.
    …I tell you that thought is fundamentally limited, and whatever it does within the area of
    consciousness is still limited…
    He says: Is it not intelligence that realizes the limitations of thought?”
    And we said, “Yes”. "
    K, Ojai, 4th Public Dialogue, 14 Apr. 1977

  • “Can one know oneself – not only at the conscious level but also at the deeper, secret levels of the mind? Without self-knowledge, surely, one has no basis for any real, serious action, no foundation upon which to build clearly. If one doesn’t know oneself, one lives such a superficial life. You may be very clever, you may know all the books in the world and be able to quote from them, but if you do not know yourself, how can you go beyond the superficial? Is it possible to know oneself so completely that, in the very observation of that total self, there is a release?”
    K: You Are the World, Ch. 10, 13 Feb. 1969, 3rd Public Talk, Stanford University

  • “A mind that is not highly moral, a mind that is not embedded in righteousness, is not capable of being free. That’s why it is important to understand oneself, to know oneself, to see the whole structure of oneself – the thoughts, the hopes, the fears, the anxieties, the ambitions, and the competitive, aggressive spirit. Unless one understands and deeply establishes righteous behaviour, there is no freedom, because the mind gets confused by its own uncertainty, by its own doubts, demands, pressures.”
    K: You Are the World, Chapter 7, 6 Feb. 1969, 4th Public Talk at University of California, Berkeley

One can know about oneself, know who one is, through thought. However, thought is not the proper tool to understand oneself, to know oneself - deeply, and - as everyone here knows - thought is limited. It is only through intelligence that one can know oneself. Then, there is the possibility to discover what one is. And, intelligence is only awakened through right action, correct action. So, as the old adage goes, character is indeed destiny.

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143

Can thought describe what intelligence is?

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Only to say that “intelligence reads ‘between the lines’ of thought”.

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No, as to what the essence means.

Yes. Indeed. … … …

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Do we know anything about it? what it does, how it manifests?

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Hi mac,

No, only as DanMcD posted.

One does not “know” that one is intelligent. Having said that, someone who Charley was suppering with said, “You have intelligence in your eyes.” One smiled and wondered, whether someone has to be intelligent as well to see it… :wink:

One “reads” (but a better word be that one checks out other posts “at a glance”…) and when one responds to a post, one responds to the content of that post.
Since intelligence is born out of right action, out of ethical behaviour, the ability to respond to the content is a marker that denotes intelligence. And without intelligence, there is no possibility of insight, that incredible capacity/faculty to see the false as the false and the true as the true, and of course, the truth of the false… and ten discover what “mutation” means. Also, without intelligence, it is impossible to discover and understand “what one is”. The lack of intelligence also manifests as constant repetitive questioning.

“I” must say that because these are just posts and without actually facing someone in real time, there are times that one sees someone posting something that appears as truth, but one cannot determine clearly whether this is just an intellectual realization or something that the person actually owns as truth, and feels it in one’s blood. However, having said this, when one cannot get a sense of “who this person is”, there is a tendency to doubt that they actually own this truth.

It is also so easy to see that they are speculating, drawing conclusions (especially false conclusions), being clever (cleverness is not intelligence - btw, Charley was never clever) and that they don’t know who they are, that they are just talking through their conditioning - mainly because one can’t get a sense of them. After glancing at quite a few posts of someone, one can easily see most of their complexes (layers of consciousness), their characteristics: greed, ambition, arrogance, selfishness, psychological blindness, fear, anger, sadness, callousness, etc. even though they do their best to hide who they are behind the mask of detachment. You see, one does not judge the fact as to whether such characteristics are good or bad, one only wonders whether or not such a person is aware of them, because that is the only important thing to be aware of.

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If we don’t know anything about something, how do we know its it?

eg. How do we know that flobbywog is doing something when we’re not thinking, if we don’t know what flobbywog is? Or if something incomprehensible happens, how can I say I know what happened?

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Teachers,

One of the finest relationships that can exist outside of childhood familial relationships is that of a good teacher who awakens in a child an understanding of any subject matter. It is like a light goes on in a child’s eyes.

On the other hand, the false/fake guru (liar) will cause any light that was there to go out. Witness someone on this site who innocently participated in many intense verbal exchanges with such a one, and eventually couldn’t take it any more and left (said he needed a “break”). So, damage has been successfully added to the poor guy there. Charley had pointed out the incorrect false conclusions and was ignored. Oh well…

As well, one also has a friend who, a long time before the above recent incident. also left the site, and after having read much earlier intense verbal exchanges between this friend and this same liar, one has understood just how much damage was done and why he left … Charley is immune to such damage (innocent mind), but others aren’t… That damage like that is allowed to continue and spread is beyond Charley’s paygrade, so to speak… It does a disservice to this site.

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150

As K also said, a person who isn’t free cannot have any relationship whatsoever with a person who is free. However, it is possible for a person who is free to establish/build a relationship with someone who isn’t free, albeit a really difficult job. :innocent:

One was moved to offer friendship to two on this site, so far… one sensed potential.

One recalls someone who once, many years ago, requested friendship with Charley. The light in him had extinguished and died out because of his incorrect action/words. Charley walked away. One might say that he had lost his ability to understand conventional truth (the truth about right action) due to his own intransigence. Most regular folk (fairly decent ones) - at one time or another in their life - “get” conventional truth. That is also why it is so important to have a correct relationship with oneself to begin with, and rediscover with great earnestness whatever such truth that was forgotten and brushed aside. There is nothing on earth that prevents anyone of these regular folk who has done that to wipe the slate clean and begin again, right?

To “meet” anyone on any subject, both must be interested in the same question, and both must be talking with each other. Any question which arises is not something that is remembered by only one and pushed at their victim. It is not that only one person controls everything - insisting that the he/she, being the controller, is the one who is always choosing the question (in effect, everything). Both listen to each other, and both learn from each other.

Hence, the need to question the authoritarianism of such a “controller”, right?

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151

Yes. But, if the “Controller” is not ready to listen/meet to see the " the need to question the authoritarianism of such a controller", as you said below,

Then, what happens to the need to question?

If one is ready to listen and other is not, what happens to the one who is ready to listen?

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152

Hiya Love,

Life always provides opportunities to “combler le déficit”. When you say “not ready”, that means you are deciding for another. Very nice of you, but incorrect on your part ! When they don’t listen, it’s because they choose not to listen. When a person behaves incorrectly, it just means they are acting out their conditioning. The reason that such people are on the planet is to be responsible, to care - to fill their emptiness with caritas. And until they realize just how irresponsible they are, it is up to them. Either they do or they don’t. Until they have done that, what K offered is not for them.

One recalls the main health official here in B.C. (British Columbia) who is responsible for deciding all mandates here - well, the govt decided that all health-care workers (including even chiropractors) must be vaccinated or lose their job (first to be put on unpaid leave, and later dismissed). Dr. Bonnie Henry stated that (in a matter of fact way some months ago) that such people would be better off working in some other kind of work.

At a minimum, Charley understands the above position. One sees that many in the world are (because of their conditioning) attracted to areas/situations where they have an opportunity to care, something they may have never had in their childhood. When a person makes a decision highlighting their own personal selfishness, it just means that they have no interest in filling their emptiness with caritas. [An aside - another discovery!! This is fun, eh?] To say that such a person isn’t ready to “meet” the moment isn’t true. They have decided not to.

So when a person witnesses abuse, and is silent, or passes the buck, it is obvious, that they don’t care and have no interest whatsoever to fill their emptiness with caritas. Such people can never be free. God knows what such a person is doing on this site… You understand? A person is responsible for their actions, for their words, and for their lack of action//words when abuse is happening. Please understand, especially on this site, it’s your life, not mine. One is not responsible for another’s choices.

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153

Relationships,

As Charley has been told not to discuss certain world situations (politics) “extensively”, Charley is unable to talk about the Ukraine crisis - Charley watched the news yesterday and tears ran down Charley’s cheeks. Charley’s ancestors (grandparents) were born in a region (one side born in the Ukraine bordering Romania, the other in Romania bordering the Ukraine - the great-great-grandparents socialized with each other) - which is about to be attacked… most likely March/April into August and beyond - war in Europe!! Charley was a tad surprised at those tears as Charley had “forgotten” about the sense of being related to certain family members. You know, related, as in a feeling deep in one’s blood… i.e. “we are blood” - having been replaced by the resultant feeling from having had the insight “I am the world, and the world is me”… The President of the Ukie ass’n here in B.C. began an interview, but he was unable to continue since he started crying - Charley too. He was a dead ringer for the mother’s father, who died many years ago - all ancestors having passed years ago. Canada is sending money to purchase “lethal aid” - geez! what an oxymoron!

Tears also ran down Charley’s cheeks at the new discovery of more unmarked graves in another residential school, and interviews with some of the victims who managed to survive the “murders”…

These things were never taught during public school, even high school… the conquerors write history, eh? (Charley “failed” history, grammar, composition in all those years - anything that involved “words” - but because of IQ tests - gifted - and Charley’s science and math scores, the principal ordered those teachers to pass Charley… Eventually, among several degrees, Charley picked up a B.A. so as to learn how to communicate :laughing:)

Charley’s high school chem teacher told us a long story (a good 15’) about how scientists had just made a most marvellous discovery, about an animal that had been discovered that would solve all food requirements, and certain parts of that animal would solve many medical problems, etc. etc. We all listened wide-eyed and then he said he had just made it all up… Edit: He wanted to instil in us the interesting notion of “questioning authority”…

154

Honesty and Freedom,

So, important, eh? So many people are conditioned to refrain from speaking their minds, usually out of fear of rocking the boat (status quo). However, transparency being so important, the lack thereof hampers one from learning about oneself, knowing oneself.

Due to a childhood incident (conditioning) - @ age 5, Charley was humiliated by the mother who chose to confront Charley with Charley’s big fat lie… lol. One laughs now, but this had a horrendous effect on Charley, because she did that in front of everyone at a large family gathering - everyone laughed. After that and until Charley was “in meditation”, Charley would turn bright red and feel the ears burning when Charley even thought of telling a lie. And others would say things like, “your face is all red!!!” So, from childhood onwards until being in meditation (early 40s), Charley had realized that she was incapable of telling any kind of falsehood, because it would be so easily discovered. So, Charley always told the truth, couldn’t even withhold information that might mislead anyone. (Withholding info is the same as lying by omission, right?)

So, along came K and meditation, and there was the actual seeing of that incident, which Charley had only some vague info about… And then the memory of that - (because it was understood - Charley can no longer even remember what that lie was) - had disappeared and vanished. Then Charley wanted to test whether it was true that the conditioning was no longer in effect (Charley tested everything, even after-effects, right?)

So, Charley told a lie to a friend !!, and no embarrassment, no redness. However, the telling of a lie had an interesting after-effect. It left a bad taste in the mouth! Charley wondered about this after-effect, and several weeks later had another occasion to test this (tell another lie), and sure enough, the same after-effect - only slightly diminished. Charley reflected on this and realized that were she to continue, eventually that feeling of a bad taste would disappear; and, and this is the big “and” - eventually, Charley would become “bad”. So, one decided then and there not to lie (right/correct action) - well, unless someone physically threatened Charley’s life, like putting a gun to Charley’s head… lol

The freedom from that conditioning is wonderful.

Charley also drowned as a child… and after that, was incapable of doing anything in water because there was always this “fear” in the background. So, after K and being in meditation, the memory surfaced and was understood. Then, Charley found a big swimming pool, and walked over to the deep end, and walked into the water, and sank to the bottom, and then swam up. Breaking the surface, and never feeling any fear whatsoever was so wonderful. FREEDOM !!

Charley also saw something in the woods as a youth, while walking alone, which frightened Charley. So, after K and being in meditation, Charley walked into the woods alone, and the memory resurfaced and was understood, and the fear disappeared/vanished. FREEDOM !!

So many incidents, some so very subtle, others not so subtle…

The conditioning has to go if one is to be free.

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The Group Mind,

The dark side is best reflected and seen by the tendency of many voices to come together and behave like a flock of birds. We have all seen them move so beautifully in the sky. Here, where K lives, one sees the geese flying north in their V formations in the spring, extraordinary ! And the crows move off all together when danger is sensed by even one of them. We have all seen this animal instinct, the gut brain of animals to bunch together in herds: sheep, cattle, horses… those 4-legged animals.

One cannot tell others what they should or shouldn’t do - absolutely not! However, one can point out that even while some are actively pursuing and using thought to develop an understanding of life derived entirely from thought, that this action is part of the wrong turn. It is always this activity that unwittingly allows for the dark side to grow and increase. That anyone who posts their conclusions which they have arrived at through the listening of their thoughts is one thing - which goes against and contradicts most of what K has talked about. This action is part of why there is war, murder, genocide, and this incredible suffering. So, Charley is not at all surprised at what is happening in the world - from heat domes, fires, floods - we had 3 occasions this year of snow falling here, where usually there is no snow - to the endemic, inflation, and now war (and war crimes) in Europe (again), and what will be the largest migration of human beings that the world has ever known. Charley has a horror of those who participate in this group mind - which is nothing but the way of the animal.

156

Friendship foiled,

Tragic to see a potential friendship fall apart, even before it begins… But that usually happens when one of the two is being dishonest - so many talk the talk; but sooner or later, what can be seen is that someone isn’t walking the walk…

157

Living the teachings (insights),

Living the teachings also includes the seeing of the false as the false and the true as the true, and of course, the truth of the false, which implies insight, which implies mutation… right?

So, the following insights which Charley has posted in this forum, one lists as follows:

So, living the teachings also includes seeing that the observer is the observed, right? - which implies seeing the true as the true of K’s statement, right? [As an aside, there is a big difference between knowing about oneself, and knowing oneself, right?]
which Charley also posted in this forum at:
the observer is the observed

Later, Charley also had another occasion in seeing within that the observer is the observed, anything that one sees within, well, “I am that”, vipassana… which Charley posted in this forum at:
the observer is the observed - 2nd insight

So, living the teachings also implies the seeing of the truth of the falseness of what “becoming” entails… and has been discussed by others (and K).
which Charley posted in this forum at:
becoming

Living the teachings also implies seeing that the truth of the falseness of the statement “the word is not the thing”, right?
which Charley also posted in this forum at:
the word is not the thing

Also, living the teachings also implies the seeing of the truth of “what is” true in the statement “I am the world, and the world is me”… right?
which Charley also posted in this forum at:
I am the world and the world is me
and at:
I am the world and the world is me, again

Living the teachings also implies "I am the ground, and hence understanding what actually is the common ground of every human being; hence, one can say: “I am you”, right?..
which Charley posted in this forum at:
"I am the ground - the common ground of all humanity

It is impossible to go back once there has been the seeing of truth… insight, right?

Living the teachings also implies putting aside all attachments - attachment to my home, my partner, my kids, my beliefs, etc. etc. etc… right?

Living the teachings also implies putting thought in its right place - “technical thought” (*s), so that one understands that psychological thought is the distorting factor… right? And such an action awakens intelligence, right? So, living the teachings also implies awakening intelligence, right? This, of course, also implies setting aside all of the accumulated knowledge which was has added to one’s consciousness over the years, right?

And does one really understand the difference between arriving at a state (or even having a goal) where one has set one’s self free from conflict (which suggests that such a goal/arrival is an end state - false suggestion) and just being free, just being…? Observation is endless, right? Learning is endless, right?

Initially, Charley was interested in never ever never having to reincarnate back again… that was Charley’s interest, only interest… (grins)

Unfortunately or fortunately (laughs), in using K’s words to end the cycle of reincarnation, Charley is now stuck in this “process”, which Charley can’t stop (blech!) - eating light to mitigate pain - in this rather fragile body, and Charley is old, 72… surrounded by some who desire/want Charley to “shut up” and “go away” (laughs more)… so the only thing Charley can say about those who would like Charley to disappear from this forum, please take it up with that immense energy which is out there and which is observing everything on the planet, including those who want Charley to go away… (rflmao !!)

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I can only speak for myself, but I at least have no wish for you to “go away”. I respect the contributions you make on this forum, your unique perspective. I am only inviting you to consider that your perspective is not the only one out there, and that many of the concerns (and insights) you have may in fact be shared by others who you - for the time being at least - seem to disregard (perhaps because of a difference in language, personality, stage of life, or what have you). We are all in this together (until we are not), right?

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159

What does this whole post actually reveal?

Hurt ego? Excessive knowledge?

Justification for what?

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WimOpdam,

You can interpret it anyway you like… :slight_smile:

Of course, the observer is the observed, right?

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It’s not my place to do your work :heart_eyes: :rofl: