Relationships

Yes, the Buddhist forums have the same - if not worse - problems (after all, they have 2400 years of word-formulations to contend with!). The forums I have seen have their own religious police - i.e. overly zealous moderators and participants who enforce a correct word-dogmatism demanded by their own particular interpretation of Buddhism - who coerce others into using one kind of terminology at the expense of all others, with very strict guidelines for use. (Kinfonet is pretty liberal in that respect).

This seems to be a denial of the original spirit of Buddhism, which involved questioning everything and not being invested in words as words (no attachment); and is certainly contrary to the spirit of compassion we usually associate with the founder of Buddhism. Compassion goes out the door once words and doctrines become more important than human relationship.

Its interesting James, I just stumbled upon this thread last night, the Bohm dialogue thread that Rick aka Nobody started. Back in April, you two I guess were still getting to know and understand each other. There appears there still was some misunderstanding between the two of you and images being formed.

You wrote to Rick: “What you’re saying is that you’re not serious. Or that you’re a troll. There is a Madhyamaka form of illusionism that makes coherent sense, but I’m not going to do your homework for you.”

Rick replied after a few more comments: “Given that, where does it leave our interaction here? We might think the other person is wrong, or deluded, or frivolous, or portentous. Does that end the interaction? Doom it to failure? Challenge us to find a way to make it work? What do we do now?”

Interestingly, Rick did not “react” to your words and responded kindly. He handled it as well as anyone could, with maturity and keeping the door open to communication and friendship and exploring. Hats off to Rick here. Most would have reacted to what James wrote and took offense to it. However, you two kept talking and trying to understand each other and now you two seem like good friends who have explored together a lot in this forum.

So I use this as an example of what I think you are talking about here James in this thread, about trying to go beyond the images we form of each other, which is inevitable, but to keep questioning, exploring together and real friendships, relationships can come out of it.

Very nicely said. I think we can substitute Krishnamurti for every time you use the word Buddhism here or the founder of Buddhism and it applies equally to Krishnamurti and Krishnamurtis teachings. It is contrary to what Krishnamurti was all about. This must be seen, otherwise Krishnamurtis teachings become institutionalized and turned into another religion, another fundamentalism or ism. And that is exactly what Krishnamurti did not want to happen and worked so hard to try to prevent. We must not go contrary to the spirit of what Krishnamurti wanted and worked for.

You can’t be sure of anything until you’ve explored it thoroughly.

What do you perceive as my bad behavior?

The example that comes to mind is violence or aggression in the face of difficult dialogue.

Or conflict in lieu of inquiry.

Holding grudges.

When you’re angry, what do you do? If you believe anger is a bad thing, you react and try to suppress it, and learn nothing by doing so. But if you treat anger like any other feeling, it flares up and subsides. It’s an alarm, a strong response to something that may be real or imagined, significant or not. So you find out what you’re angry about, look at it calmly, and understand why you felt incensed. It may or may not be for a good reason.

Anger and fear are upsetting emotions, so we decide they are bad, unnecessary, to be rid of, but that may not be true.

Ah yes, I remember that thread now you mention it!

I have since learnt that there is a lot more to Rick than his sometimes contrarian-sounding comments communicate - his playful presence on Kinfonet belies how genuinely thoughtful and sensitive a person he is (sorry for saying this Rick, if you are reading!).

At that time I think I had an image of Rick as being a kind of “spiritual nihilist” - he was saying something along the lines of: nature is just a story, it isn’t real (at least, this is how I remember it).

This statement frustrated me, because from childhood I have always been concerned about the destruction we humans are doing to the planet, to animals, to ecosystems; and have consequently spent significant periods of my life involved in nature conservation, living in jungle, countryside, wilderness areas, etc. I have always been fond of animals, been a veggie since my teens. And so it has always disappointed and upset me that some of those in the ‘spiritual milieu’ seem to denigrate nature, calling it an illusion, etc (even going so far as to indulge in conspiracy theories about climate change being a hoax, etc) - so when I heard Rick seemingly calling nature an illusion, I probably projected onto him all those images I had about such people. There is, for me, a respectable way of calling nature an illusion (e.g. certain forms of Madhyamaka), and so I spat that out at him as a final send-off.

We did actually talk about this sometime later, and it turns out he is sympathetic with the Madhyamaka illusionism I mentioned after all, but for reasons that make a whole lot more sense now that I have actually spoken with him directly.

But in that moment of friction, there was an impasse of blocked communication - I couldn’t sense where Rick was coming from, and he was trying to respond to my confusion in as mature a way as he was able to. I see that now, but I could not see it at the time.

As you say, we kept on talking, and now I have a better sense of where Rick is coming from (the puzzle that he remains notwithstanding!). But I think the impasse was only broken when we spoke directly. That changed the whole communication for me.

Yes. This probably needs going into elsewhere, but one sees how, in the development of all religious teachings, it begins with some fresh insight or creativity, and gradually, over time, becomes rigid and dogmatic.

There is a fine line between taking K’s teachings seriously, exploring them in the context of one’s daily life, listening very carefully to what K had to say - and making his words into something monolithic, unchangeable, dogmatic. There is a temptation to subtly identify oneself with his words, to create a self-image out of what K said, and to become intolerant of any other way of using language. Reactivity sets in, feelings of superiority and inferiority, those who “know” and those who “don’t get it”, us and them, etc. All of this is isolating - which we see happening among Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims.

So, as I see it, everything that K said about other religions, religious teachers and leaders, also applies to the teachings of Krishnamurti. He didn’t always make this as clear as he could have done, but it is always implicit - and often explicit - in the things he said:

‘question authority’, ‘the teacher is not important’, ‘the word is not the thing’, ‘be sceptical’, ‘tear it to pieces’, ‘doubt’, ‘don’t say anything you haven’t seen for yourself’, ‘you must be a light to yourself’, etc.

So one must have this balanced sense of - to use the Buddhist language K himself often employed - on the one hand, a reverential listening to the words of the Buddha; and on the other, an attitude of “if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him”! (a Chan proverb).

Thought and love,

  • “K: Meditation is the ending of thought.”

  • “K: This meditative mind is the religious mind.”

  • “K: Thought is the very denial of love, and it cannot enter into that space where the “me” is not. In that space is the benediction which man seeks and cannot find. He seeks it within the frontiers of thought, and thought destroys the ecstasy of this benediction.”

  • “K: Love cannot be cultivated by thought.”

  • "K: **Meditation is the freedom from thought, and a movement in the ecstasy of truth.

  • “K: Love can only be in utter emptiness.”

  • “K: Don’t depend on anyone, don’t join spiritual organizations; one has to learn all this out of oneself. And there the mind will discover things that are incredible.”

  • “K: Understanding is not a gradual process to be gathered little by little, with care and patience. Understanding is now or never; it is a destructive flash, not a tame affair; it is this shattering that one is afraid of and so one avoids it, knowingly or unknowingly. Understanding may alter the course of one’s life, the way of thought and action; it may be pleasant or not but understanding is a danger to all relationship.”

  • “K: We do not know what love is, for in the space made by thought around itself as the “me”, love is the conflict of the “me” and the “not-me”. This conflict, this torture, is not love.”

  • “K: Thought destroys feeling—feeling being love. Thought can offer only pleasure, and in the pursuit of pleasure love is pushed aside.”

  • “K: In the flame of meditation thought ends and with it feeling, for neither is love. Without love, there is no essence; without it there are only ashes on which is based our existence. Out of the emptiness love is.”

all the above from Meditations, 1979

One doesn’t know how anyone can speak constantly of compassion (love), all the while exercising thought and knowledge (theorizing, speculating, comparing, drawing conclusions, etc.) When thought is there, there is never love, right? It is knowledge which generates thought. And while knowledge dominates, love cannot or ever be.

2 Likes

Charley, after reading this, does any of your images about James change? I think you two are closer in how you see the world and have a lot more in common than you care to admit. You seem very passionate about climate change, etc and so does James!

Thought is contradictory in it’s nature. Sentimentality is not love but a mask we put on to make ourselves bigger than what we are. I think being factual is the only thing that sets human free not the attempt to be kind which is a trick of the mind.

I wish all of the participants here could prioritise what we have in common and relate from there; but it is human nature - or rather, the nature of thought - to continually set up boundaries, and in this case I am apparently on the other side of it.

No-one here is constantly speaking about compassion and love. If it has been raised as an issue, I do not see anything inherently wrong about it. Love and compassion are part of K’s teachings after all.

Everyone on the forum is using thought to write the very sentences being used on this thread. When a person shares their experiences, opinions, judgements, criticisms of others, etc, thought is clearly being employed.

No-one on the forum is an expert on love, but that ought not to stop us from exploring it together or alone. K talked about the importance of affection, goodwill, kindness, respect. He talked about feeling responsible for the world, care for others, for plants and animals. Love and compassion may - and probably does - go much, much further than this; but this is where we can find ourselves now, if we are sensitive, feeling, alive. There is no need - and no justification - for hard-heartedness, for erecting boundaries, for being dismissive of others. Affection costs nothing.

It is not about attempting to be kind. It is about seeing the fact that one feels unkindly, and responding from there - investigating, being sensitive, not drawing hard and fast conclusions about what one can and cannot feel.

You are kind when you want something and you become unkind to people who you want nothing of. It is a trick of the mind.

Is this the whole extent of it, Examiner?

When we are flattered by another, we feel more kindly disposed to them; and when we are insulted by another, we less kindly disposed to them. This is part of what creates tribal allegiances, ideological communities, in-groups and out-groups - whether political, religious, sectarian, national, and so on.

But the kindness I am talking about is the feeling of respect, care, affection for another. Perhaps one only feels this for one or two other people, or maybe only for an animal, a pet, or perhaps for a garden.

Kindness comes from the word “kin” (proto-Germanic kunja) - meaning “family”. It is the feeling that we share a common kinship - or humanity - with another, even if it is only a bird that visits the garden, or a rose one has planted and waters during the summer months. Kindness starts with how one responds to the people in one’s immediate vicinity (not here on an impersonal forum where we only encounter words). What is one’s relationship with one’s family, one’s dependents (if one has any), one’s friends and colleagues? Is there affection and kindness there, or just indifference, callousness, self-interest?

Mustn’t one inquire into this too?

Let’s forget about kindness for now . Can love come into being through the action of thought ? Inquire into that. Can commitment to love bring about the actual love?

DavidS,

No, not at all, because of the following…

If anything, to put something like this up on this site is unconscionable.

I really don’t mind that James speculates and analyzes and theorizes, etc. etc. That’s him, not Charley. But he can do it in the threads which he has started, and Charley won’t go there.

You see, love is to see that it is love (as one saw today) that holds all life together, the trees, the birds, the people walking, the young crows cawing to be fed, and who only shut up when the mother pokes her beak into their open jaw and regurgitates some food, all alive. A few days ago, one saw someone who had said to Charley, “I love you,” so many times. Charley never got into any kind of intimate relationship with him, because Charley understood that that wasn’t love at all. Hardly recognized him at first, he had put on some weight, and then Charley noticed how his entire form seemed like a shadow, as if he was a ghost walking. Death was very close to him.

It is like that here in Victoria, known throughout the province as the land of the newly wed or nearly dead. There were only 3 “industries” here when one moved here: government, taking care of old folks, and the tourist business. And then one really cold day in December or January about a dozen years ago, when there was a bit a snow on the ground, one guy climbed into one of those big garbage bins and froze to death inside. This made the headlines across Canada and all of a sudden, the rich folk in Oak Bay forked over millions to build a place where the homeless could go and live. And since then, the $ hasn’t stopped, they buy up falling down motels/hotels and house as many as they can in there. They do this so the rich people in Oak Bay don’t have to see them camping out in their pretty little parks, and find them sleeping in doorways. Since then, this has developed into a full-blown 4th industry/business full of professional “helpers” who use any and all means to get people off any addiction (and because there is no integrity in their efforts, one asked about their success rate and was told that it was extremely low). Their main job is to subtly move them into the hands of the shrinks (a real assembly line), who label them, and thus they end up on welfare with that label - on full disability, and thus become eligible to live in these motels. The shrinks make a fortune doing this btw, especially when they prescribe a new drug to their “victims”, @ 10K and up or so per each new drug by the companies who manufacture these drugs. So now we have all these professional “helpers” living out their conditioning at the expense of many unfortunate victims, and a 4th industry is now a reality here.

Please forgive me for saying this, dont take it the wrong way, but you are quite mistaken here. That is a well known Buddhist quote or proverb about killing the Buddha on the road. It is not meant to be taken literally, but psychologically, in that it means dont be dependent on the Buddha, dont follow him. It is very similar to what Krishnamurti taught or said. Psychologically, dont be dependent on anyone!

I still stand by what I said after reading many of your posts and James, that you two have more in common, are more similar than you care to admit. Both of you have a deep passion and concern for the environment and climate change, etc.

Lets try not to let our images of others on here dictate too much of how we respond to them. And also as your opening post in this thread says, lets meet in friendship and love and affection. Lets all come from love.

1 Like

DavidS,

Love isn’t affection, even Hitler had affection for his dog and his friends.

I have read Krishnamurti quite a lot but I dont follow him, I am not a follower of his. I do my own thinking and looking. To me, affection is part of love.

Affection, care, interest, friendliness, etc is part of dialogue and is part of what I am referring to in meeting with love.

You may disagree and dissect what Krishnamurti said and try to systematize it. I see a danger in this and do not take Krishnamurtis words literally or as final truth or as a system. I try to see what he is pointing at, but that is as far as I will go with his words. I know many who go much farther, and say love is this or that like Krishnamurti says, or meditation is this or that and not traditional meditation, etc. There is great danger here and most who do this are blind to what they are doing.

You asked in the opening post of this thread, if you are loving? And I feel I am coming from love, at times. Not in the language of Krishnamurti, but in my own understanding and feeling of love, I know at times I come from love. And this love makes dialogue and relationships possible.

I just dont get why or how Charley sees this as loving, as coming from love? Why Charley doesnt want him or his contributions in her threads and why Charley wont go in his threads?

He is obviously doing more than just speculating and analyzing and theorizing. He lives some of this stuff, as we all do, to an extent.

I just am baffled how you can start a thread on Relationships and quote Krishnamurti on it, about love, and then come from a seeming indifference and lack of caring for some of these posters who come to your thread or other threads you are on.

Basically I am asking if you can be in relationship with them or not? Or to you love is staying away from certain people, certain posters? Is relationship only one sided, from those who are loving and those who are not loving cannot be in relationship? Or is it possible for all of us to be in relationship with each other, to meet each other from a place of love and care, even if we are very different or disagree with much of what they say? What really does it mean to be in relationship with another?