Relationships

Charley,

I have absolutely no wish to argue with you. If you are saying that I am mistaken, I am willing to accept that this may well be the case. However, you have made many statements that - at least when taken literally - imply the opposite. You did, I recall, call yourself an arhat. Maybe you do not know that according to Buddhism an arhat is an ‘enlightened’ person? You have also, on several occasions, claimed to have undergone - or be in the process of undergoing - the same ‘mutation’ that K talked about. You may mean by these words something quite different from what other people (such as myself) understand by them. That’s ok. But the very black and white way in which you portray (and judge) others on the forum - almost always contrasting them with your own assumed innocence/perfection/clarity - is cause for ambiguity on this score.

Similarly, you may be correct that the recent breakdown in communication between us (on the Facts-Only: Unconscious Mind thread) was wholly my fault, and that you were responding at all times with sensitive awareness, impersonal fellowship, etc. But I felt that you did react - I don’t know to what exactly - and that this is why you refused to continue discussing the matter with me, and instead called me a “piece of work”, someone about whom one would call 911 about, etc: which I took to be deliberately hurtful comments. Why would you make such comments if you had not reacted to something? Were you responding to the particular content of what I had written? I don’t see how you were. From my point of view I was simply in the middle of a discussion with you about something that I thought we were both interested in clarifying - and I was not prepared for the sudden volatility of your response.

So it seems to me that you may be projecting onto me (and others) an image that you have about me (and others) in your mind, which makes you accuse me of things that you yourself are doing. You are intelligent enough to see this. You - I am sure - know what it is to be self-aware, perceptive about your own behaviour. So why do you not see what - to me at least - is so clearly evident?

Tell me, when was the last time you admitted to someone on this forum that you were wrong about something, or that you genuinely did have reaction to something they said?

Looking at myself, I know I am often reactive. I am interested to learn about these reactions, because this is part of self-knowledge. These reactions are a part of me - they are me in fact. I know I am self-interested at times on the forum, I can be narcissistic - meaning that I like to be appreciated by others, and I don’t like to see evidence of my being shown to be ‘in the wrong’. But I am not immune to empirical evidence revealing to me the contrary. I am not a pathological narcissist if this is what you are accusing me of (though I have known people who definitely were).

So you can take all this as being a personal attack on you, that’s up to you. But part of relationship is holding up a mirror to each other, and showing each other where we may be confused, not completely conscious, not completely aware. You are not innocent of throwing mud Charley, and neither am I. But I would rather learn about the reactions that come up in relationship (not just with you, but with everyone), than evade them all by cutting oneself off relationship entirely.

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James,

Charley knows very little about Buddhism, but Charley noticed the word “arhat” in the texts of K that one has. It said arhat = someone who has “no self”. And since the time that one was sitting having dinner, the person opposite me, asked: “How are you?”, and Charley opened her mouth, and couldn’t find the “I”. So Charley, shoved some food in her mouth, and wondered what to say, ending saying something… forget what now. That’s all, real simple. Insofar as being “enlightened” in the sense of the Buddha, of Nagarjuna or K. NO! Charley has never said “I am free,” or “I am enlightened”… etc. (while having discussed some of the conditioning… that that conditioning was no more and was free of the effects of that conditioning). Charley is not an “enlightened” being like K. Charley has also said here, that there is no one like K who will come again for another 100 years or so (which includes Charley). Nope, not at all. So yes, you are mistaken. One can through awareness and attentiveness come to a point where the contents are (in the main) sufficiently gone that the “I” disappears. Either that or Charley is gaga! (laughs) :laughing: Believe what you want. But leave me alone. Go away. Go back to your own threads and speculate and theorize, and do whatever it is you like doing in here. You have your little gang of followers who admire, respect, appreciate, and can relate to your posts. So go and play with them. Just GO.

Well, at least that’s something!

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that Charley. And honestly, I mean you no disrespect. It’s a shame we got off on the wrong foot, so that you feel further communication between us will be fruitless. I feel your image of me is somewhat exaggerated - perhaps in time your feeling towards me (or others like me) might change? I leave that to chance.

Just to clarify something about myself though, as you have mentioned it a few times now: I am definitely not seeking followers (or teachers) - you can believe me on this - nor do I see anyone I interact with on here as a follower (or a teacher) - except in the most general sense that we are all ‘teachers’ and ‘disciples’ to each other, through the common process of learning. In this sense, you are (or have been) a teacher to me too: I have learned something about myself through my interactions with you.

I will still ‘look in’ from time to time on what you write, but I won’t interact with you unless you give the go ahead.

None of the threads on here belong to me, so I don’t feel ownership of them. Nor do I see others as having ownership of the threads they may happen to be posting on. This is the way I see things on the forum.

I will leave you in peace.

arhat,

there may very well be an intermediate state of being between being someone without “self”, and being “enlightened”, I DON’T KNOW. One has yet to reach whatever that is which is called the “source”… Whatever, one understands that Buddhist categories are only labels, written by many who didn’t get to what is they call an arhat state or even enlightenment. Buddhists (those in their monasteries - the organized religious ones), for what Charley understands… a bunch of horny men in a cult, who exploit “nuns” as kitchen help.

edit: one suspects that the idea of 3 different states culminating in arhat-ness, which the Buddhists invented, has contributed to much misunderstanding globally. In other words, that being an arhat is something to be arrived at, a fixed point - which Charley understands is tantamount to some sort of conclusion, and as Charley likes to say, a patently false conclusion. One has begun to understand what K meant by saying that this is all an “endless” journey - that there is no beginning and no end. I trust this is clear.

People close to Krishnamurti believed he could read their minds. Do you believe he could foretell the future? Do you believe the human species will survive the effects of our antibiotic way of life and not be extinct by 2087?

One can through awareness and attentiveness come to a point where the contents are (in the main) sufficiently gone that the “I” disappears.

Probably everyone here believes that is true, but most are honest enough to know their content has not disappeared. If you have no content, no “you”, how can you take umbrage at someone’s opinion of you?

Believe what you want. But leave me alone. Go away. Go back to your own threads and speculate and theorize, and do whatever it is you like doing in here. You have your little gang of followers who admire, respect, appreciate, and can relate to your posts. So go and play with them.

Is this envy and churlish resentment typical of selfless people? .

What K. suggest is that YOU are the teacher AND the teach. If you point out something to me , or that I discover something by myself that is true, and I see it by myself, then, I am , this mind is , the teacher and the teach. We then follow the truth, if I may say , not anyone 's interpretation or perception of what THEY perceive. I think it make more sense. Never accepting anything that you don’t see by yourself is fundamental. It is not a …concept or a credo or a rule…or a dogma. It is rather being rational and sane. What do you think ?

Yes Richard, I agree with you. We are both the teacher and the taught, both the master and the pupil. If you point out to me something true, and I see it for myself to be true, then it is ‘truth’ - it doesn’t belong to anyone. It is yours as well as mine, and it is neither of our possession.

The key is to give oneself the freedom to see things for ourselves, without accepting through pressure (of authority) what other people say is true - so that one isn’t dependent on anyone else in matters of truth. Truth can only be discovered in freedom.

Totaly agree with that James.

I wouldn’t know because I’m not free of the content that decrees what truth is and is not. But because I distrust this content and question its every reaction, I am not too tightly bound…

I think we like to think we know what is rational and sane, but if we did, we wouldn’t need Krishnamurti or this forum. We are the content of consciousness, and as such, we see by decree, what is rational and sane.

As said in the post, never accepting anything that we dont see by ourselves is what I meant by rationality and sanity.

Don’t understand what you mean here. Can you explain?

If the conditioned brain can see that it is not rational and sane, it can’t continue to be what it is.

Sometimes we can see we’re being irrational and insane, but most of the time, our irrationality and insanity is so subtle and suggestive that we can’t/won’t see it.

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You’re totaly right on that Inquiry. Not an easy task to live sanely .

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This is another fundamental thing in the way I see relationship. In relationship only I can see my reactions, the way my mind function. Relationships are the mirror in which I can see myself. The window in which reside selfknowledge. Still, holding a mirror to each other,and showing each other where we may be confused, not completely conscious, not completely aware, as you say, is a very delicat task, don’t you think ?

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I wouldn’t know, having never done it…

in•sane

(ɪnˈseɪn)

adj.

1. (not in technical use) mentally unsound or deranged; demented; mad.

2. of, characteristic of, or for persons who are mentally deranged.

3. utterly senseless; irrational: an insane plan.

[1550–60; < Latin]

in•sane′ly, adv.

in•sane′ness, n.

Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Thanks for the clarification Examiner.

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Yes, holding up a mirror to another is a delicate task, as you say Richard. Relationship itself is often difficult and always delicate!

But is the “holding up” (of the mirror) something that we actively “do”, through some kind of effort? Or is it something that happens just by our engaging in relationship? Aren’t we a mirror for another just by being who we are - just as the other person is a mirror to us, just by being who they are?

And if we are willing to look into that mirror (that the relationship with the other person reveals to us - through our reactions and responses to them), then we might begin to see ourselves more clearly, and see - for instance - how lacking in delicacy we have been (not that we must feel guilt or shame about it - it is just ‘what is’).

This gives us the opportunity to naturally - through mere awareness (of the indelicacy) - alter the mirror (because awareness acts like light in darkness); and then, perhaps, we no longer reflect to the other person exactly the same ‘relationship dynamic’ as before, giving them in turn an opportunity to see something new in the mirror that they see.

In this way relationship is a living thing, not a static repetition. But this is only true if one or both parties are actively engaged in looking at what they see in the mirror of their reactions and responses (to the relationship).

Exactly. My last post on this thread. Sorry Charley if one slip out of topic.

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Q: it seems as if you are saying that the content of thought essentially has no meaning in the art of living.

K: Yes. remembrance has no place in the art of living. relationship is the art of living. If there is remembrance in relationship, it is not relationship. relationship is between human beings, not between their memories. It is these memories that divide, and so there is contention, the opposition of the “you” and the “me”. So thought, which is remembrance, has no place whatsoever in relationship. This is the art of living. relationship is to all things-to nature, the birds, the rocks, to everything around us and above us, to the clouds, the stars and to the blue sky. All existence is relationship. Without it you cannot live. Because we have corrupted relationship, we live in a society that is degenerating. The art of living can come into being only when thought does not contaminate love. In these schools can the teacher be wholly committed to this art?

Chapter 23 - Relationship is the art of living