Purity and impurity

it there such a thing as purity or impurity in creation ?
nevertheless, there are thoughts that separate things into pure and impure
if I am asked what is pure or impure …I do not know how to start a dialogue on this topic

This seems to me the best starting point!

You state that there are thoughts.
So were are those thoughts come from?
From your memory, from you likes or dislikes?
Or are you asking if something in itself is pure?
Or is purity itself , like love.

we describe it endlesly but it’s still not itself, it’s just its describtion and that is by itself shortcoming but can be truthfully or not.

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I am not ignoring your comment, I am too confused to write…

Purity and impurity

I think this pair is loaded with spiritual illusion, more then other opposites. I looked up and found religions have used these concepts.

Like and dislike are more vague concepts but Purity and impurity are strongly discriminatory and almost “violent”, under the cover of spirituality.

When I look at something in me and I call it pure, it’s opposite creates a strong impulse of separation from others. Then I call my self impure for thinking of separation. I see how my mind slides from pure to impure and back to pure, I am at the mercy of opposites. I can’t ever be pure !

This is true with any opposites… this movement between the opposites is the “l” …isn’t it ?

I do not see impurity in nature. I see nature being pure. The word pure has no opposite in nature, as love, as you say.

I think there are words which are not sliding between extremes/opposites. Nature is pure in the sense it is whole. As love.

I ask my self this:
Do I consider the “l” or the mind to be impure ? Cause if I do I will never get close to understand humanity.

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Then put those concepts aside and look at yourself/humanity directly without any preconceptions.

Why bother about purity and impurity? It’s an old concept of traditional religions, and one has to reject all religions if one has to find truth.

Voyager !

I will look at purity and impurity until they have no power over my thinking. I don’t have the power to drop purity and impurity at will. They are imbedded in my thinking.

That’s funny !! Not sure why, but the way I read your words, or the way the words sounded in my brain, made me think it is simple to drop ideas….

It’s not a matter of will, you’ll put it aside naturally the moment you see the falseness of it.

Therefore you have to understand entirely what it means to see, to perceive (mentally) and so you are able dinstinguish it from thinking. They are two different processes of our mind which can take place almost simultaneously and mingle together so usually can be difficult to separate them. One has to be really attentive and so one can see that actually thought takes over a fraction of second after the perception of something and in this way it twists it.

I have been raised as catholic, so of course my mind was heavily conditioned by that doctrine. But at the age of fourteen I became increasingly interested in knowing more about this religions beyond what I had been told in church. So I studied it a bit. After a while I had the clear perception that it was false, a loads of infantile inventions created by fear and desire. And that’s was the end of it!
I didn’t have to do any effort to drop it, simply it had no more any power over me.

The concept of purity and impurity is connected with that of sin, and sin is simply to disobey to the will of God. God is a sultan, a king, and you have to obey to his laws, that’s all.There is no intelligence in it, no understanding why one thing is sin or not. All the semitic religions: islam, Hebraism and christianity are based on the carrot and the stick system. People are treated like donkeys which receive a carrot when they obey or are beaten when they disobey. Don’t you see how infantile is that all? And you are impure when you commit a sin, so you have to repent to be pure again. Very simple, very conditioning, very stupid. And over the years purity and impurity has been connected mainly with sex, and this idea has obsessed humanity for centuries. So on one side we have a natural desire and on the other side we have the fear to be “impure” and so to go to hell, and therefore we live perpetually in conflict. Can you see, perceive, feel this conflict in you and all the tension, sorrow which is producing and how it is spoiling your intelligence and your life?
If you feel this tension then why should you sustain it?

I don´t think that, just because these concepts of purity and impurity have been misused by the heads of organized religions in order to control people and to get power over them, they have to be dropped or put aside, nor do I see intelligence in this way of proceeding either but rather a reactive response to what are just words which is something very common amongst K´s followers who may have dropped the struggle to turn the impurity into purity but spend most of their time fighting with words as chattering about attention. For instance, you don´t define these words, what your own enquiry and investigation tells you that they mean, you only write on to what they are associated which is what, as far as I understand, you are really dropping only that along with all the others concepts associated to them, you reject the words themselves too because, as it happens to most of people, just to hear these words or to read them seems to cause you to break out in hives which means that the conflict has not been solved.

K was clever in his search for his own language in order to actualize words and terms associated to traditional religions, releasing them from that to which they have been associated which is part of the brain´s conditioning but merely replacing one for the other leaves us at the same point, doesn´t it? This forum´s posts prove it. Attention means to look at, to face without reacting or running away, only then impurity is cleansed up and its opposite, purity, is over too.

Yes, of course, because in this case, i.e the issue raised by crina, that is all that matters (in my opinion). We can discuss about purity, what it means, ect. ad infinitum but this will not solve our dilemma.

By the way you didn’t define what purity means… yet it’s obvious you are giving importance to it. So, if that is your position, you should be the first to define it and to explain to us why you think it is important.

If you re-read what I wrote, it´s not purity to what I´m giving importance but to impurity:

K himself considered his so called process as a cleansing process to which he never resisted. In the OP it is asked whether there is such a thing as impurity or purity in creation, is it not the brain part of creation?

Surely, you can make your own deductions from here on, can´t you?

Impurity and purity are two related concepts, so when you talk about one you are implicity talking about the other too. And any way the question of Crina concerned both.

Still you are not defining what YOU mean with “impurity” (and therefore with purity), and so there is no ground for dicussion.

I don’t know what K meant with “cleansing process”, do you? I can only make suppositions: cleansing the body from toxins? Cleansing the mind from “impure” thoughts?

The word impure (or pure) has sense in the phisical world, we can say this water is impure, i.e. is polluted, contaminated, or simply dirty. But when we apply it to the so called spiritual realm (or if you prefer in the psychoilogical field) it’s just a metaphor which does not tell anything about the real nature of what one is talking about. I may have my suppositions of what it can be, of what the ancient hindus meant with it, but I don’t think that our interpretation could be of any help.

I assumed Crina is born or lives in the western world and so her mind like mine has been shaped by Christianity, and therefore that is the most likely source from which she got those concepts. And I feel it’s important to disentagle oneself from such as vague and ambigue ideas.

I’m still waiting to know why you give such an importance to it.

Sir, it is you who is urging others to drop the concepts impurity-purity not me. On my part, and to be frank, I couldn´t care less whether you or anyone drop whatever, I´m just trying to see through these words what they are pointing out, putting aside the polluted or impure point of view of a repressed catholic. I bet the day smokers are jailed it will be because of a law enacted by ex-smokers. “By jove …!”

Would you like some tea, coffee, a magazine, some book by K, video, podcasts …?

K’s Work was all about human’s suffering, cruelty, violence, etc, all the result of an ‘impure’ situation in the mind/brain. There was ‘stuff’ in there that had no place that came about through fear, insecurity, a mistaken image of who or what we actually are. His ‘solution’ was an ‘emptying’ of all that ‘stuff’, attachments, beliefs, traditions, and with that done, perception would be direct rather than filtered and mankind could ‘awaken’. Intelligence would prevail. The empty, silent mind would be a ‘purified mind. Freed from its shackles of whatever.

So at last your game is obvious! :innocent:
Happy you who amuse yourself with such a games!

It’s just inevitable with words, language, without which there are no opposites.

Isn’t it already wrong to look inside yourself?

Take for example a river that is not polluted by people, can we call it pure? Krishnaji often used the metaphor of getting to the other side , but isn’t the river itself rather the metaphor for the flowing of life - both the same and never the same, always moving but we want to get a foothold and get to the bank while on the contrary we should let go of the opposite banks/standpoints and surrender to the flow of life in which we are confronted with all that humanity is supposedly working to improve itself.

You can also take the bank point and argue that we are polluting the river but then you have stepped out of the current so simply put: don’t be the polluter!

Yes I know it is just a metaphor and whatever we dialogue it is ultimately about what we are AND how did it go that one-liner ’ There is no way to Love, love is the way.’

rereading this reply I see another vieuw going with the word ‘bank’ but time is too short to go into it now, maybe another moment, priority calls.

Thank you to all of you for commenting on this topic…

The measure of purity is impure because, for that which is impure, purity must be proved, and proving it is polluting it.