Before we can move to another question we need to examine the previous question that why do we value the wrong things like the image that we want the society to have about us?
Thank you Karne for this presentation - I agree with a lot of what you say - please though let me point out what I think goes against the idea that : the distinction between Psy Knowledge and Practical knowledge is based on our relationship with knowledge, and not what the knowledge is about
(It doesn’t matter whether our knowledge is about animals, objects, humans, or concepts - it is about the self clinging to the knowledge, identifying with the knowledge)
It is our identification with the knowledge that makes it Psychological Knowledge.
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The recording of ones daily life (and its classification during sleep) is about knowledge and the self (thus psy knowledge) but why do you claim that this form of learning is only centred on human relationship - we also learn about the rest of reality, including processes, events, and concepts outside the realm of sociality. Of course for social animals, sociality is an essential part of existence.
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Functional or Practical Knowledge are good words because they point directly at the importance of the knowledge - and the main difference with the more problematic kind : Psychological Knowledge which means it is tied to Identity and emotion.
Why would Functional Knowledge be merely Physical? We can have useful knowledge about concepts, consciousness, self, psychology, math, learning a language etc (nb. none of which are considered Physical in common language)
Human relationship is naturally very important to our wellbeing and civilisation - but Knowledge is surely not merely about our social relationships.
Our relationship with the world is not only based on our perceptions of other humans.
The problem is the self in its relationship with knowledge.
To start the journey with JK. This understanding and distinction between Psychological and Physical knowledge is important.
Because JK in his dialogues mainly and almost all addresses talks about Psychological knowledge, how thought and time have played role in creating division, making it appear observer is different from what is being observed, extension of Physical time ( based on sun rise and sun set) to Psychological time ( I am this and want to be that), what is the relationship between desire, and fear, insecurity, etc, what is love.
Like wise he touched many aspects of self or psychi or me or image making.
One may try the book titled " mind without measure" and " freedom from known" and try you tube videos JK, of his last 5 to 10 years. They are quite easy in his presentation.
The dreams or memories in sleep, are extension of the day. So what has been recorded during the day, will be played during sleep.
Now, my observation is that during the sleep, the stories are not created from single event, it may contain mix of multiple events that related, not related, happened in sequence or happen in a time gap. One can create a dream, mixed with many events of the day, week, month etc.
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Hello again Karne - If I may just repeat this :
This seems key to an understanding of Psychological Knowledge.
(However, you did propose we used the word Functional Knowledge - I would prefer you did instead of Physical which is misleading - unless you would care to explain further why physical is preferable - for example by addressing my comment No. 22 on the subject above)
The carpenter or the surgeon can’t say “I don’t know “. The mastery of the accumulated information of every body of functional knowledge is necessary if it is to perform at its most effective, efficient level. Surgery and carpentry have very definite goals as do the bodies of ‘psychological’ knowledge : the ancient Ways to become ‘enlightened’, Fakir, Monk, Yogi, Western Religions, etc. There are rites, rituals, texts, hierarchies, time to become is involved, mastery, levels…
But, mankind continues to suffer, to be susceptible to killing, to war, but now on a completely different scale, ever more destructive than in the past.
Why is ‘not knowing’ in the psychological realm necessary to realize? Is it?
Dan,
In the psychological area, everyone is changing - all the time; some are even degenerating/deteriorating. The “other” whom one knew yesterday is no longer the same person today. People are constantly experiencing. Unless the other has been extraordinarily abusive, and it is important to speak out when confronted with someone like that as well as keeping one’s distance, carrying “psychological knowledge” about that person within is additive and prevents “relationship”. One’s psychological memory of the “other” is the one significant aspect that maintains status quo, that maintains expectations, and the “norm” of what others seek to attain within the society in which we find ourselves. So, what “I” am saying, is that such behaviour maintains everything that society is.
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Change is also very much present in the non psychological area. And doubly so when it comes to knowledge.
What is practical here and now, is not necessarily so there and then.
What we knew about reality changes immensely over the years - what was once right becomes wrong at a rate of about 7% per annum !
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Mac,
Oh how I really enjoy QI, my cable co. is giving a free preview of BBC First, where I have been watching QI, have to laugh, brit humour is unparalleled. Alan Davies’ fav word usually begins with the letter “p”… lol Guess which one !!
Having studied science, was and am still aware that all knowledge that we were taught was always being given with the proviso, that it would be “périmée” (I had to look up that word … translates as expired) because of ongoing advances.
It is interesting that in the hyperlink you provided, Stephen Fry talks about facts no longer being facts, almost as if and this is the interesting part, that a person who is told a scientific fact believes that it is a truth. Did you get that? For example, the food pyramid that I was taught in school as being “healthy” is no longer considered so. The funny part (funny as in odd) is that most people who aren’t into science think that as well !! They confuse facts and truth. 7% eh? Who knew? 
From a K pov, however, it still remains a fact - a fact that was said…!!, but not truth !!
I recall in an intro physics course in electricity, we were all shown a cartoon of how electricity flows in a wire. I couldn’t understand why the prof didn’t show us a real video of the process. So, I raised my hand and asked why not (to which all the guys in the class laughed - usual sexism). However, the prof pointed out that it was impossible to show because the idea that electrons were the particles moving in a wire was just a theory. And, if I or anyone would come up with a better theory, well, they would win the next Nobel in physics.
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My understanding of “Physical” means here to do with material aspects, matter etc and acts done using human body. Physical means table, car, electricity, computer etc.
I used functional meaning we function using these Physical things.
Psychological on the other hand deals with me, self, activities around self and me and rest of me. Thought and time induced attributes, like desire, fear, jealous, anger, etc. On the other hand LOVE can never be product of thought and time. One can experience LOVE, by knowing what is not love. Is jealousy love, Is anger love? Is expectation love? Is sex(sensation)love?etc.
For both above requires sensory organs to create experience translates to knowledge then memory then birth od thought. Experience is the genesis of thought.
knowledge(physical)is useful and other knowledge(Psychological)is useless.
Some one may quickly argue, that to know nature of a person and his cunningness, etc, it is better have the knowledge of the person. However, that knowledge is it has no value in human relationships. Past or extending the past to present or living in the past, and looking at present from the prism of past has no value. We can actually discover it by being aware and being in the present, how past, thought and time plays the mischief.
Time -
Physical time:- Time takes to travel from Newyork to London by flight.
Psychological Time:- Time taken to for a person person to understand from being violent now to not being violent in next moment.
Human beings apply logic of physical Time to PSYCHOLOGICAL TIME. Meaning I AM VIOLENT TODAY, I WANT TO BE NON VOILENT TOMORROW. Instead of understanding the what is voilence, he comes up with a theory of non voilence and pursues that endlessly. Thinking that it takes time to change. Like time to took travel a distance from NY to London. Human beings don’t see the truth that the very or true understanding of what is voilence is ending of voilence. It is instant or immediate. No time is required.
I have introduced what is to listen to JK. Go slow. Observe with attention and total energy (using all sensory organs at its highest capacity)ones daily life and how we operate in our human relationships and interactions. Lot of things get revealed without an effort. When you follow those insights, new awakening starts.
No one can be a light to others including JK. You need search the answers and find out the truth by your own torch.
It does have value in functional knowledge. It has less value in psychological knowledge because humans are mutable, subject to change. What was true of oneself or another yesterday may not be true today.
the very or true understanding of what is voilence is ending of voilence.
Many who have listened to or read Krishnamurti repeat this as if it is their own discovery.
If you actually see that you value things that has no value what so ever then things may change for you.
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Do you think you’ve changed? Do you have no self-image because image forming has no value? Do you perceive directly rather than through images?
By “you” I mean you in general.
No, I mean you personally because you said (of self-image and images of others) that they “has no value”. If you see that self-image and images of others are of no value, the implication is that you have no self-image and you don’t form images of others. Do you imagine yourself free of image forming?
What do we mean by having images of others and ourselves? What is an image of a person? Does an image of a person exist without comparison. Short ,tall, intelligent,stupid rich or poor ,black or white and so on. Thought is the creator of all images through comparison what matters if I have image of myself or others. What matters is to be aware of the activities of thought…
You’re conflating imagination and comparison. An image is not necessarily a comparison.
What matters is to be aware of the activities of thought…
Yes, but being aware of “the activities of thought” doesn’t mean seeing clearly enough to quit imagining what one can’t see,
I don’t think that we are here to discuss photo images or remembrance of a person’s face. We are talking about self- image which is created through comparison and measure. I am smarter than others or I have more knowledge than an average Joe. I have a bigger house than you have and so on. Is that way of thinking necessary at all?
Yes, to most people. Are you an exception? Do you speak from a place where “that way of thinking” does not occur? If so, is this something new, or have you always been free of this common mentality?
So you are saying humans are doomed to think in term of comparison. I don’t think so. Humans are not a static thing like a house or a chair . Humans learn and change all the time like a river. Once one realizes that comparison is destructive in relationship then if he continues to compare then he must have a mental illness that needs to be addressed.
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Black.
Up.
Good.
Cold.
Please reread the the words above - who, if anyone, is fighting against the necessary comparisons? Who has judged that comparison is destructive? Who is provoking the thoughts, emotions, knowledge, conclusions that arise? Who judges these thoughts that arise and reacts to them?
Once I have realised anything intellectually - what have I realised apart from a refining of my own beliefs?
The mental habits have been conditioned over millenia - Habits can change and they do over times and cultures and fashions - my interpetations, judgements, confusion, conclusions and conflict are merely the habitual thoughts that arise from what I am.