I wrote this to Paul in another thread but it needs its own thread to discuss:
You do seem to mimic Krishnamurti, the teacher, and play that role. It seems to be your persona. It is worth looking into, to see if there is any truth to it or not. … You do, at least it appears to me, to speak with too much certainty and not enough doubt. You seem too sure of yourself and too preachy at times.
Paul, I was surprised you wanted to explore it publically rather than just look into yourself, watch yourself to see if there was any truth to what I said or not.
I cannot make any guarantees I will have interest to continue exploring with you, having a dialogue. I find your writing hard to grasp onto and find it very circular and we never get anywhere. But I will go in with an open mind and forget the past and see what happens. And of course, others are free to join in as well.
I think a good place to start the discussion is for you to address what I wrote about Mimicking Krishnamurti, if you see yourself doing that at all or not… And if you see yourself being too preachy at times or too confident in your speaking/writing… and not enough tentativeness…
I don’t know. Can you find something specific that mimics K? Or is it just a general feeling you have because of the confident air surrounding some of the things I write?
PS I have spent the last twenty years looking at this for myself. It is good to open it up publicly.
At the moment, nothing specific, it is more a general feeling. I have tried to read you off and on for awhile and I know you write articles and lead Kinfonet dialogue and have been to Brockwood Park. So I know you are exposed to Krishnamurtis teachings for years and have some experience in dialogue.
It is more than just your confidence in some of the things you write, it is as Inquiry pointed out, you tend to mimic Krishnamurti it appears or imitate him, the way he talks, goes about dialogues. Has anybody ever accused you of this before or have you seen this tendency in yourself?
Speaking generally, you can see the danger in this, of imitating Krishnamurti without having his insights, perceptions?
Thats the spirit Paul. But be forewarned, some might come to confront you in this thread. I guess this is where the rubber meets the road.
When one confronts another on any issue like this, one is really only ever confronting oneself. That’s actually the fun of it. And those who stick with it to the end find out about that and enter into an aspect of human relationship that is truly quite joyful. But it takes an awful lot of guts actually to confront anyone about anything at the very deepest levels of our being. Therefore most of it remains surface confrontation.
Now if this sounds like K, it’s too bad, because I don’t have any other words for it. It is like when the discussion turns towards considering the interaction between the observer and the observed. Perhaps we are borrowing words and phrases that have too much history to them. However, it is really a side issue, one that distracts from the central fact that we have to find a new way of meeting one another. This has been my raison d’etre from day one. About this there is supreme confidence; I can’t pretend otherwise.
In what way is Paul mimicking K?
I don’t recognise the similarity between their words or ideas (I mean its not a copy verbatim).
Is it more to do with a perceived attitude of authority in what is being said? (or control over the proceedings, where the inquiry should lead)
Or in the relation between Paul and his interlocutor? (ie. based on a dogmatic truth, rather than what the other person is saying, is coming from)
Good questions Douglas. This is all rather subjective btw, how each of us reads Paul, so there will be different perceptions about him.
But with that said, at least for me, it is not that Paul repeats verbatim what K said, but tries more to act like him, how K spoke and approached dialogues and some of his mannerisms, etc
I did a quick search and found that Inquiry said it the best in regards to how he sees Paul in this post from the "Direct Perception thread on March 19:
“For the last twenty years or so, you’ve been aping Krishnamurti’s way of conversing in his dialogues. When you began your mimicry of the man, you would address another as “Sir” as K did. And though you’ve dropped that tactic, you continue to shamelessly impersonate the man, his tendency to speak peremptorily, emphatically, and in absolutes.”
Paul is not alone in this, and I have seen many do the same exact thing in Krishnamurti dialogues.
There is danger in imitating a teacher or trying to mimic them. Here is a Zen story about this:
When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.
This is a good start Paul, we are meeting, communicating with each other.
You admit you come across as confident, knowing, etc.
After starting this thread, I see that it is not so much about the personal, about Paul, that is something he has to watch for himself and see for himself, but it is more about the impersonal, universal, we all have these tendencies to imitate, follow, mimic, repeat, and are conditioned. This is what we are exploring, going into.
Thanks for the tip with the cat, I will give it a try.
Only about the necessity of finding a new way to live. About everything else I am in the dark.
This is verging on obsession - which is why we need to calm down, more than we need to put others in their place. We may get upset with some interactions, but is anyone really in danger of … being bamboozled? If there is a danger, we must all take responsability (ie. participate, help out)
What Paul says doesn’t seem dangerous, in fact I agree with a lot of it (though I sometimes have to squint and interpret charitably) I just wish we could talk as equals. (But maybe we are just not equal in our passions)
So Paul, do you not see some of what I am trying to point out here? Do you not see that some repeat verbatim what K said, try to act like him, how K spoke and approached dialogues and some of his mannerisms, etc I have not been to Brockwood Park, but imagine the dialogues there are the same as the K dialogues I attend, and all of these things I mention are present there. Be honest, lets talk, communicate, share about this, this is very important to me and of great interest. What about you?
Douglas, very balanced and calm approach you are presenting here. I did not say what Paul says is dangerous, that was Inquiry. They have had a back and forth for a long time. I just quoted Inquiry because he summed up pretty well what I see too. And dont forget Paul is open to discussing all of this, he encouraged it. So there is no obsession here on my part, cant speak for Inquiry though, he is his own person. I am conversing with Paul very respectfully and interested in hearing what he has to say.
I meant Inquiry is obsessed with the Paul problem
Yes, your insistence on “meeting one another” has always been your obsession, and when I asked you why, you said that friendship is transformation, I realized that you’re using the teaching and K’s speaking style to push your belief that we must meet one another.
Okay good. I can drop this discussion at a moments notice, I have no bone to pick with Paul, no axe to grind. Overall he seems like a decent enough fellow, and we both have deep interest in Krishnamurtis teachings and both have interest in dialogue.
In many ways this is the right approach, “meeting one another” is of the utmost importance and most of the time it does not happen. I think possibly the problem is when this approach becomes mechanical and a habit, instead of fresh, alive, and without past images. But it is true, that “meeting one another” is a big part of Krishnamurtis teachings.
BTW yes I agree. Even though Inquiry has a lot of good things to share, he seems a little obsessed with this Paul fellow. I dont personally see the danger he points out, but I do see some of the things he points out, which as I shared is common in K circles, Paul is not alone in those traits.
On a side note, it drives me crazy, I know a few K folk who when having a conversation or dialogue with them, will constantly say after every few sentences “Right?” and they want you to respond or “Are you listening or Do you get get it?” Those kind of things, imitating how K talked, drive me crazy and I find so annoying. Just be yourself, dont imitate K.
“Sir” always makes me do a double take.
Either meet in a new way, or not meet at all? No prisoners?