Memory

Kinfonet Discussion
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A dialogue is for me, distilled to its essence, a language-based interaction between two or more people. It might be spoken, it might be written.

Back in the old days of the infamous KFA forum, there were dialogues that were image-based. I guess music based dialogues could also work, but mostly they’re language based.

My ideal ‘inquiry dialogue’ is a dialogue with a dynamic individual/collective balance whose goal is to reveal what makes its participants tick in terms of thought, feeling, conditioning, memory, emotion. It’s similar to group therapy, but the scope of exploration is broader and there’s no therapist.

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This is intriguing, but I am sorry James, I dont quite understand it. Can you unpack it for me better. What I understand is that K said something like We are the content of our consciousness, and if we emptying our content, then consciousness would be different than we know it, as it is now.

But he gave the impression that it is very rare and few or none have actually done it, except him, the speaker.

So you are suggesting that half of the group actually believes they have done this, are free from the contents of consciousness? Or are you using this phrase “contents of consciousness” differently in some way? What to you is contents of consciousness?

And even the questions are content they think and dont want to touch it or have anything to do with it? This line of reasoning is so new and foreign to me, I never heard this said before. Again, can you unpack this a little more. Thanks

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Not the ideal, but how is the actual dialogues going that you attend, both the Krishnamurti ones and the Bohm one you posted about a little while ago? Do they live up to your ideal or fall short? And do you think that most people in these dialogues are coming from memory, the past, intellect, repeating Krishnamurti or Bohm or are they really looking freshly?

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Hi David. :slight_smile:

The Krishnamurti dialogues sponsored by Kinfonet (Wednesday, Sunday) are difficult for me. They’re quite large (10-20 people), which makes conversation challenging. (So many people and different points of view!) And the content is often too abstract and impersonal to passionately engage with. That’s my take, others will see it differently.

I am also in a Bohm dialogue that meets regularly. It’s smaller, more personal, and tends to be less in the head, more in the heart. I do better with it, it’s more my style.

As for people being driven by memory vs. looking freshly, it’s a mix in both groups. And I’m fine with that. Too memory driven and the dialogue can become a celebration of selfs/egos. Too memory shunning and the dialogue can become cold and clinical. A good balance is needed.

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Thanks for sharing your reaction. I don’t know if “the game is fixed”, or if there is a game. I just don’t see how there can be any speculation about something that is not a process, not a timely exercise.

if direct perception is not something I do, I can’t know what it is until/unless it reveals the process I am.

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Thanks Rick for sharing. I find larger dialogue groups also difficult for me, hard to get a word in. I prefer small groups, like 5-6 people.

Thats interesting that the Bohm group is more in the heart, than in the head, for Bohm was quite the heady, intellectual type. But glad you are going to it and find it more your style.

Interesting take too on the memory vs looking freshly. But not sure I understand what you mean when you say “Too memory shunning and the dialogue can become cold and clinical?” Are you suggesting that those who insist on looking freshly, can make the dialogue too cold and clinical?

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I may just be reacting to semantics, and imprecise wording here, but the distinction seems crucial : there being no content, and being free from the content, are not the same thing. Non-existence of a thing and our not being dependant on that thing, are 2 different situations.

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The Queen,

The weirdest thing, one isn’t sure of which word to describe this, - perhaps surreal would be appropriate? - was the parade of the gold-plated “carriage” (minus the Queen) lol. So, her “handlers” figured out a way to put a video of her younger face in the window of the carriage, so those standing by watching the “carriage” trot by, could still see the Queen - their memory of her. In other words, they would still see their image retained in their memory of what they were attached to… Did those who saw that in real time wave?
And oddly enough, there were also images in the Royal family’s tribute to “mummy” (not sure whether that should be the spelling as it reminds of the Egyptian mummies) in the sky of dogs (corgis, I think) and some other of the Queen’s favourite things.

In extreme contrast, all of what K talked about was “the other”. In other words, every single talk which K gave had to do with other human beings, with what it meant to be a human being, and his understanding of what people are really like - his questioning of “what am I?” - the greed, the corruption, the selfishness, the exploitation, the violence, the beliefs, the feelings, thoughts, opinions - all of which contribute to what society stands for and encourages - the development of the “me”. That his talks were all about “the other” is contrasted with the Queen’s life of “me”, “me”, “me”, inherited wealth and power, all of which is maintained at the expense of the “other” - and maintained by the Church and the police, all those people dressed to the nines, those men in their suits, shirts and ties.

Can one imagine that one’s whole life was all about “my” “self”? and that there are so many people who celebrate that? - the conceit, the smugness, the pleasure… Can one imagine that there are so many into K dialogue groups who have absolutely nothing to say about such a horror? That such belief in that kind of family, mater familias, or pater familias - meaning literally mother of the slaves, father of the slaves - is continually being celebrated. Didn’t anyone wonder in their teens what life was all about?

Meanwhile approx. half of the world’s population is presently suffering from the heat (climate change) and from starvation. What will the other half do when they begin to suffer from the same things?

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Oh, that’s interesting. You seem to suggest that they had travelled to Ukraine from elsewhere. Were they by any chance Romani (Roma)? Apparently there is some linguistic and genetic evidence to suggest that the Romani peoples can be traced back to Indo-Aryans who left North India about 1500 years ago. Could this be why a French-Canadian “accused” you of being Indian? Was any of their musicianship passed down to your parents’ generation? (apologies if I am being nosy).

I don’t think they greatly edited the footage of the Queen in that particular clip (apart from adding the animation of course!) - but apparently, in one segment of the Jubilee celebration, there was a procession involving a Royal horse-drawn carriage (a special golden one used for coronations) in which a holographic image of the young Queen Elizabeth sat and waved to the passing crowds! - It did look rather freakish: I think it was simply because Elizabeth herself was too infirm to sit in the carriage herself and this was the organisers’ best plan B!

Yes. This is what makes dialogues (especially in-person or online ones) challenging, but sometimes also very worthwhile. You said previously that a good facilitator is important, and I agree - but even the best facilitator cannot make a dialogue ‘successful’ (if that is the correct word) without the co-operation of at least 30 to 40 per cent of the participants. There needs to be an intelligent ‘critical mass’, and then a dialogue becomes meaningful. - Just out of interest, have you ever attended the in-person dialogues in Canada (or Ojai)? I believe they sometimes hold dialogue events in a place just outside Victoria BC, which looks very scenic in the photos.

EDIT: I mentioned the Queen’s hologram business in my reply to your earlier post, not seeing that you have subsequently addressed this in your following post.

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I’m afraid I permitted myself to exaggerate the situation out of my frustration with a particular meeting!

In the meeting there was a mix of factors that contributed to my frustration, and this was just one of them. The actual number of people in that meeting implicitly or explicitly claiming to be free of ‘the contents of consciousness’ was in fact nearer to 2 or 3 only, so by saying “half” I was not telling the literal truth! - I suppose, because it has happened many, many times before (in dialogues) that people claim (implicitly or explicitly) to be free from all content, it made me feel exasperated on this occasion, because there were other more basic problems in communication that needed to be addressed, and this was like the straw that broke the camel’s back.

When you have a smallish group involved in dialogue, it only takes 2 or 3 people pushing determinedly in one particular direction for this to have a powerful effect of its own, and in this dialogue there were several separate pushes going on from different sides.

However, I am glad to say that yesterday’s dialogue was much improved! I was able to see where I had myself gone wrong in the previous dialogue, and we were able to have a frank discussion about some of the problems we have been having in communication. The dialogues do vary from week to week, and the participants vary too, so it is always something new (in that sense).

On the matter of those participants claiming to be

my feeling is that most of them - and I am thinking of the dozens or scores of people who have claimed (implicitly or explicitly) to be free of psychological content over the last however many years of dialogues I have attended - most of them have been greatly influenced by the neo-Advaita milieu. (I don’t know if you are familiar with this milieu?).

There are a great many neo-Advaita teachers who claim to be free from psychological content, and who give workshops promulgating this outlook to willing audiences. In this approach all that one has to do is to “listen” or “observe” without identifying oneself with any psychological content. This sounds very ‘K’ up to a point, but in practice it means that such people no longer feel the need to inquire into fear, suffering, etc, because they believe the “listening” will take care of it all.

That is, it has become a kind of method for them, which hides a subtle belief system: They believe that psychological content is an illusion because everything is already consciousness or awareness (like Atman). So all one needs to do is to avail oneself of this Atman-like consciousness (or “listening”) and all will be well.

To go into this further would take more discussion than there is time for right now, but this is my understanding of the issue.

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Well, if we are honest, probably most of us are in this boat. If we were truly “profoundly” affected, then we would be free from suffering - and, speaking for myself, I am not free from suffering.

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I value the role you often play here as Inquiry Referee:

Objection! Calls for speculation.

But, if taken to heart, it’s a conversation stopper, rather than starter.

Had I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

– Yeats

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Afaik Bohm’s ‘ideal’ group for a dialogue was 20+ people!

Yes, I think the tenor of a group depends as much or more on the tenor of its members than its rules and goals.

Something like that. All methodologies have their strengths and weaknesses, right? One of the ways “looking freshly without drawing on memory” can go wrong is to establish a kind of taboo against the personal, which imo can (though doesn’t have to) encourage cold/clinical analysis.

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James,

Yes, lol, also the thievery, quite a few uncles, cousins (and their partners) have prison records… lol, and there are those who have no prison records, but were clever enough to keep out of reach of the authorities… lol

the mother had perfect pitch (aka absolute pitch), something to see when I rented a piano, and she sat down, and within a few minutes had an entire song played out - with both hands !! Fine soprano as well…

I can tell when any note is played off key btw, which one has translated into can also tell when someone makes a false conclusion…lol

Yes, In Montreal - one - the guy had a yellow layer inside that took up most of the space, had no idea what that meant at that time btw, he spent a lot of time going on about the particular therapy he had done something about “transactional” something or other… left half-way through, I spoke with an elder about him, she and her K friends said that “this” was going the “wrong way”…(i.e. the wrong turn). She ran a lending library - tapes and such. She couldn’t stand me btw, really resentful and jealous of yours truly *G.

Yes, In Ojai, the mind-heart said to keep a low profile, Mary spotted me and began addressing just me in her opening welcome speech, so realized that, and pulled baseball cap down low, and turned head down. I attended a few dialogue group meetings, and ended up walking out. There was this one woman who had kindness (the real thing btw) in her eyes, and it affected me, and I opened up and so she saw what I was inside, she gasped and then ended up following me around. Lovely old lady, married to an intello, poor woman !! He told me he married her because of the kindness (greedy guy, etc.). We talked a little, I explained to him that responsible only meant able to respond (he didn’t get that !). The food was excellent! Met some hyper-sensitive K peeps, really messed up. Ended up staying in a motel, instead of the K grounds. The hotel peeps weren’t into K and were the only decent peeps I met when there, apart from the old kind lady, and very aware Mary. A teacher was nice to me first night, giving me shelter in his spare room, they had messed up my room reservation…

Yes, in Metchosin, been there - early - mid 90s(?), this rich Indian woman had one guy show up (forget his name, known to K, etc.) and I was the only participant, so I sat in front of him, outside on wooden deck chairs, and waited, his eyes were closed as he was doing whatever he was doing, he didn’t even notice me, lol, talk about a lack of awareness! lol, Finally after 15 minutes of silence, it was enough, and took off quietly. Don’t recall him noticing my departure (lol). Skimpy brekkie - oatmeal, skipped that as well. Metchosin is beautiful. They held viewings of K talks - saw a few there, but no one was friendly; bookstore - only new building… was too into meditation to be interested in them. The swimming pool full of dirt, not looked after… Rest seemed old and untended … this angry guy looked after the management of the grounds, and animals… (there was this cow, if I recall, very beautiful cow…) place right on the ocean btw. Walk down to ocean difficult as ground untended.

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Thanks James for clarifying matters in this post. Yes, I am familiar with Neo Advaita. I am not a scholar or anything like yourself, nor highly educated, but I have done some reading on my own on Advaita and Neo Advaita.

If anyone is claiming to be free of psychological content or being influenced by Neo Advaita about this in K groups or K forums, they are probably stuck in misunderstanding.

I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and your sharing on these many topics. Thank you

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James, is this the kind of Neo-Advaita you are referring to? If so, surprising that Krishnamurti readers do not have better discernment and realize the fallacy of Neo Advaita.

from http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/neo-advaita.html

"
[The following is an analysis of what has come to be called “Advaita Syndrome”
or “Advaita Disease,” written by a philosophical counselor, Greg Goode (see his
website: www.heartofnow.com). This piece has often circulated anonymously, but
Greg is the author. He recently wrote to me:
“Dear Timothy… Writing about these satsang conceits was inspired by several
years of close observation of the zoological type satsangus teacheritis. I used
to visit and hang with two or three satsang teachers per month for several
years as they came through NYC [New York City]. Boy could I tell you stories. I
bet you have some too! I’m glad to see your page on the craziness of the
neo-satsang movement. There’s not much advaita to it so I don’t call it
neo-advaita.”]
LUCKNOW DISEASE - linguistic malady befalling seekers at Papaji’s [HWL Poonja,
1913-97, of Lucknow, India]. Characterized by never using the word “I” to
encourage one’s self and also to show others that there is no one [no reified
ego] at home here. Instead, they would say things like “This form is going to
the rest room.”
ADVAITA SHUFFLE - Conversational gambit. What [Papaji disciple] Andrew Cohen
accused [another Papaji disciple] Gangaji of doing when she didn’t want to talk
about ethics and enlightenment. Jumping to the absolute level at odd times.
Like when the receptionist asks why you were late for your doctor’s
appointment. “There’s no one here to go anywhere or be late for anything.”
LANDING - Losing one’s enlightenment. What Gangaji accused Andrew Cohen of
having done. Term used by those who think of enlightenment as a kind of thing
that can be lost. Something like claiming enlightenment and then getting
peevish and petty over who pays the tip at the dinner.
NONDUAL POLICE - Those who badger others to use nondual terminology. Whenever
they hear someone saying something like “I’m going out for coffee,” they barge
in: “WHO is going out for coffee??” Nondual police want everyone to always be
in constant Ramana-self-inquiry-mode.
THE EYE THING - Keeping eye contact with the other person as long as possible.
Whoever drops their gaze first is not as established in the Beloved. Some
blinking is OK, but not too much. The deeper into the Self you are, the longer
you can hold it. Used by many satsang teachers. One of my friends can out-stare
anyone. He kinds of drops into a Candidiasis-mind-fog, and hours can go by.

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It sounds like an interesting family! - I suppose it comes with being diasporic (a group who are perpetually ‘outside’ the settled community) that there is always a liability of crossing the line between legitimate outsidership and transgression… I recall a Bob Dylan quote that maybe summarises this challenge: “to live outside the law, you must be honest.”

You may have mentioned this already, but did you ever make a living from music? (I seem to remember somewhere that you wrote about being an artist at one point, but that you chose not to go down the path of artistic self-expression).

I’m sorry about that. From what I know of the different K communities the people are often busy and absorbed in their own communal challenges, and can be a bit insular sometimes. But at least you met Mary (Zimbalist?) and a good-hearted older lady. Funnily enough years ago I met Mary Z on my very first visit to the Krishnamurti Centre in the UK (I live in the UK), and I was fortunate enough to speak to her several times (we were practically the only guests there for a couple of days). She was a thoughtful and intelligent woman - quite open minded from my recollection. I didn’t speak to her after that, but she left a good impression on me.

It’s a shame there weren’t more people at the Canadian Krishnamurti Centre, but I know that they’ve been through many ups and downs there, and it is a rather isolated (though beautiful) setting. I would like to visit sometime (it’s on my bucket-list).

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In this case your “dream” was to talk about perception as we know it (a process), and I stomped on it by saying that perception (according to K) is not a process because it’s immediate, instantaneous, and we can’t talk about or speculate about what is not a process.

I won’t defend or justify that stomping, but I didn’t want to go over what we already know about what we call “perception” because it’s quite clear that we process perception to accord with our biases and beliefs, our conclusions, our reality.

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James,

No, Did two other things, two passions *S. Not to discuss here, sorry. The 2nd gave c the opportunity to fill heart with compassion. While writing this, Charley notices the electronic keyboard - those black and white keys - behind the flat screen sitting with majestic and dispassionate indifference on a chair, wrapped in bubble wrap, and taking a good rest, fast asleep. The acrylics and french easel are also fast asleep *S

What do you mean by “open minded”; some guy here accused Charley about not being “open minded”, which Charley thought was lame, especially since K trashed being “open minded”. (scoffing cough!)

You suppose wrong, Charley moved a dozen times between 20 and 35, at least, while holding down steady jobs, and getting edumecated, heavily with uni(s). Other family members hardly moved at all. Always had the sense to live as fully as possible cause death too close. This is complicated re: family members, they “chose” to blend in, even changing last name, lying about origins, had a lot of trouble finding out about what the father and uncles were doing in their younger years; never found out the whole story, etc. They were all dangerous, even the aunts scared me. Although… their parties were “wild”… sometimes being rushed into cars as a child outside a house, while knife fights had broken out. The music, dancing and food were terrific.

So, what do you do for a living? lol, when you are not analysing, comparing, thinking here? lol [laughing loads] The same thing?? lol

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Ah. It is something a little bit similar (though not the same of course) with me. When I was younger I loved drawing, and wanted to pursue art. But life and time got in the way (events in the life situation) and so I slowly lost touch with drawing and painting. And now I never draw or paint, not even for fun. It’s a shame, but at the same time I don’t really miss it - so I most likely would never have been a committed artist after all.

In your case, though, I would be surprised if music was entirely banished from your life? Perhaps you sing in the kitchen…?

I just meant that I remember her (Mary Z) as an older, oldish woman (in years), and yet she was still interested in what I had been thinking about, in the political situation in the world, about the environmental destruction of nature, and so on. I vaguely recall talking with her about the emergence of life, evolution, and how homo sapiens was putting an immense pressure on the earth support systems, all within a very short space of time, and that probably only some kind of global transformation would address it. - We were just discussing these issues, you understand - I wasn’t pretending to be an authority on the matter, and neither was she. It was a genuinely open exploration of the ‘earth crisis’ and the human crisis in relation to it - and for a lady in her 80s to be discussing these things with me in such an engaging and youthful way, was refreshing.

I didn’t know who she was at the time, so I didn’t have any preset image of her. We only spoke during those few days, and then I left. I saw her again afterwards - from a distance, or in passing - when I came to work at the school (Brockwood - I was a mature student there for a while). But I didn’t speak to her one on one like that again.

It sounds like there is a rich, but difficult story there! - I hope you were not too traumatised by their insensitivity.

At the moment, I am working (part time) at a small local museum… In fact, I have to leave for work now…