Questioner: I am a student of chartered accountancy. Even though I could understand each and every word of JK, the message remains vague. What should I do to understand his message fully?
Krishnamurti: Don’t understand his message! (Laughter) He is not bringing a message. He is pointing out your life, not his life, or his message, he is pointing out how you live, what’s your daily life. And we are unwilling to face that. We are unwilling to go into our sorrow, our tortures of anxiety, loneliness, the depressions we go through, the desire to fulfil, to become something.
… the speaker has no message. The message is you. I am not… the speaker is not - this is not a matter of cleverness - just pointing out this.
Madras, India | 1st Public Question & Answer Meeting 6th January 1981
For reality, him and her, this and that, there is much that is said. But we are looking at the psychology, to put it that way. So I am at a meeting, talking with someone, but I have to be clear I am looking at myself integrated in whatever there is. Not ignoring anyone or any thing, and not emphasizing my activity, but looking closely and asking, is all this my self? What is happening with me, and is this common ground? This is what is meant by the mirror. I get an awareness of my condition, my psychology, my thinking, and that this is one of the selves, fragmented, trying to put it all into some order.
Greetings @James
This reply I posted yesterday but edited those because, to try another day and feel what actually happens within me.
See, as you said about desire for sex & then diverting them to desire for god, I don’t feel there is those two desires.
See, in our modern world, everywhere er turn there is form of seduction to attract people for money,business,etc… in form of media,news,etc… Women (or) businessman, wants to make them beautiful with many cosmetics but those attract others towards them. And so I feel in Muslims & Hindu traditions, they might introduced ‘Pardah & Hijab’ and have set them to not come out from their home. I feel it is a curse. Beauty attracts to be attached with them. Beauty seduce others.
And so I feel, there is no thought/desire involved in this seduction. After being seduced, the senses controls the mind, and there thoughts come into play and makes to speak (or) watch porn,etc…
Edit - First, I was not this much attracted in my life before. But when my desires/attachments totally reduced and become ‘nil’ only then more attractions happened. In 3 years of my Articleship training for auditor, in my free time after work, I was just in Media watching entertainments,movies then spending time with friends & my crush, buying some food & clothes to my taste and life went on. But when my crush left rejecting me, it totally hurted and only then my desire/attachments totally reduced. I was alone just studying taking classes,eating and sleeping. As the attachments reduced - senses starts to take control of my body. Senses drived me. Only after when I out of sufferings/desires, that senses become a monster. You too will feel about this sensual attraction when your desires are ‘nil’ and drags to hold on something, James.
But now,
Within me, when I seduced, thoughts arise to watch porn but immediately stops, with a feeling of “What a beauty in your creation Krishna”. Then my seduction falls and I continue to do work. I don’t know where this feelings/words come but I totally see that it is not from ‘me’.
This is what happens within me in case of seduction.
Edit - Here seduction is not only sensual pleasure but to buy food,clothes,materials like car,bike,furniture,house,good university,good job,alcohol,etc… through Ads.,in-persons. The whole business in this world runs by this seduction/attraction.
Everything that attracts us in this Universe, is a form of seduction to dwell in ‘I’.
But I feel this seduction/lust is the topmost & foremost attraction in this world/society. I don’t know why women want to beautify themselves. I don’t know why men want to be Masculine. The Hairs are much attractive too. The shape of a woman for man and man for woman is much dependent on how haircuts and combing are done. What will they get by not covering their body?. Just money,recognition,compete with another woman,attract men,attract women,etc… And so I feel, saffron clothes are weared (not tight but loose) and hairs are totally shaved/covered/left untouched and grown big beards and long hair by Yogis,Saddhus,Buddhists,etc… Isn’t it?.
What do you feel James? Is this senses/body a curse and we are much attached to it?
Shall I put this way @PhilipB ?
The erasing/dropping ‘image’ is not necessary, but to not act based on that ‘image’ every time is necessary. Everytime the image is present (like how K described about Microphone,physical objects). But to be aware of those and not act based on those image. To be aware and not act by rejecting/accepting someone based on ‘image’ gained by previous conversations.
Does this sound good?
Yes.
Just as you put it above, we are not rejecting nor accepting the image, but it is another way in which I affect and am affected.
Because One is not aware and so affected. Isn’t it?. As one is not aware - these images affect us and no smooth relationship happens.
So, what is this awareness? It’s like when you see a poisonous snake - you stay away from it. So, this ‘poisonous snake’ is same as ‘images,beliefs,etc…’.
So, what is this seeing?. It is looking everything within us and around us (even if it is past). Only by looking my past - I can be aware.
If I don’t look and pretend that “I dropped/left the image”, this “images,beliefs,‘me’” are like monkeys. If we drop them by not looking it, it will unconsciously jump on our back and we will continue with it and no listening & smooth relationship happens.
But if we look in and around me(including past), once and for all, I can be aware of it. And in that awareness, whenever it jump on back, I will drop it immediately.
We cannot drop/end me & thoughts once and stay away. It will arise. This is Nature. Only after ‘Enlightenment’ it may be possible. Even for K, thought/image/me will arise. But in choiceless awareness, whenever it comes, it dies. There is death every moment.
Viswa
You have formed an opinion, which has been reinforced by your reading of scripture and your religious tradition (and so has hardened into a conclusion), that the senses are bad, wrong, deceptive, seducing.
But are they? Surely the sense of smell, the sense of sight, the sense of touch and taste and hearing, are purely factual, perceptual instruments. There is nothing inherently bad or wrong about sensing or perceiving the world: this is what your body is designed to do.
The word “seduction” comes from an etymology meaning “to lead away” - as in, to lead away from the path of righteousness.
So, the implication is that you feel that you are on a righteous path, and yet you are tempted away by an irresistible urge or desire.
This urge or desire you are claiming is the result of the senses. But this is where I think you are mistaken.
When one sees something beautiful, one’s senses receive the impression, the contact, of that sensual object (a woman or man, a garden or house, etc), and there is a sensation. The sensation can give rise to a feeling in the body: joy, pleasure, a sense of beauty or appreciation. If we could leave it there, and not carry it over into memory and thought, then there wouldn’t be any problem with the sensual perception of beautiful things.
The problem is that we carry over the joyful or pleasurable sensation into the next moment, through memory and thought: this (as K endlessly pointed out) is the birth of desire and craving.
So it is thought that is responsible for the experience of seduction you speak about, not the senses.
How to leave it sir?
Had you left it immediately sir?
Are you out of desire/thoughts 24/7 ?
Viswa - you literally took 1 minute to reply to what I wrote. This means that you didn’t take the time necessary to consider what I shared with you.
I won’t discuss with you if you don’t want to be serious.
If you are serious, then you will consider what has been said, and reflect upon it before answering.
Sorry James. I read it and seen what you said.
Senses are not the problem - but thought is responsible for seduction. Right?
I seen that - Okay I may be wrong. Thought is responsible for “sensual pleasure”. When Senses perceives - there is beauty. Then thought comes in.
And so I ask - how to cut the connection between ‘senses’ and ‘thoughts’?
Here I said - I may be wrong and I have another thing to share after this - to show why I say may
Before asking this question, find out if what K said is true: namely, that seduction is rooted in thought and desire, not in the senses.
I took some time to write what I said above, and I do not want to repeat it because you haven’t taken the time to reflect on the position you have taken (with regards to the senses); so find out - for yourself - whether it is true or false.
If you have seen that thought is responsible for desire - and not the senses - then, and only then, can we discuss further.
James - Can I ask one thing?
I have to show you something. You may be right about “Thoughts are responsible for desires”. But for me, it is only a statement.
I have many doubts regarding this. And so, could you come down to my level and clarify my doubts?
Viswa - I won’t discuss with you until you have read my original post properly, taken some time to reflect on what it says, and find out for yourself - by thinking it through - whether the chief responsibility for “seduction”, for desire, for craving, lies in thought, thinking, or the senses.
Think it out for yourself please.
I thought - and I have many doubts.
I can perceive the above statements - only if my doubts are cleared - or else it is only a knowledge for me James.
I may be caught in ‘images’ and those ‘images’ blocks me from seeing/perceiving what you said. Those ‘images’ if not cleared - I cannot rightly perceive those.
Could you please understand my position?
Could you come down to my level and start clearing my doubts?
You have literally taken less than 10 minutes to think about it! A serious person takes time, thinks things through, reflects.
What do you doubt about what was said above?
Thanks James for coming to my level. I’m sorry - but those are only statements and I heard it from K so many times. I thought it many times. And so I immediately replied. Sorry james.
These are my doubts,
Had you lived for more than a year without any attachments/desires James?.
Before a year, I had so many attachment and totally got ride of those - like Job,people,friends,car,bike,entertainments,reading books,etc… But after that, I can clearly see there is no attachments other than those. I was only looking about myself and what happens in the world - in that very seeing suffering ended and it lead me here now. After that, neither anger nor desires. But only Lust.
Now, my question is - had you lived like this without any attachments James?. When there is only no attachments - you can really perceive what these senses really are - at that time no K words can help us. Even when I see Rolls Royce,Royal Enfields which I desired before, no thoughts aroused - but only beauty and sensations. No kind of attachments at all. After beauty leaves - just an awareness that - “Those are only atoms in different permutations and combinations and only brings sufferings later on. Cheap pleasures”. Thats it.
But when I perceive some implicit parts - this ‘seduction’ had no impact on thoughts. It drives me crazy James - as there is no desire/attachment inside me. Even it beats the awareness, as no sufferings comes after the action, but only body energy decreases and I’m not attached to body and aware that it is limited and going to die one day.
I can easily compare the “thoughtful situation” and “seduction” situation. It is entirely different James. I heard those K’s words. I even had a dialogue in this forum before. Here it is.
While doing those, I was fully aware as I was attached with my body. But when my attachment with my body decreases (even though I see it is responsibility to take care) - this senses drived me again crazy. And so, I started to doubt K “He might be attached with his body and so he was not ‘enlightened’”. Only then it lead to scriptures.
I don’t know how I was driven back to scriptures - but after reading those - there is total awareness which is extremely more than - when I aware but attached to body.
Even when I perceive the implicit parts then, seduced and thought arises. But thought immediately ends with words “What a creation power he has”. I don’t know from where this words come - but it’s sure that I don’t control (or) suppress (or) diverted. After that, I continue to feel the beauty. That’s all. No thoughts at all. Extreme beauty. No image of Krishna too. Nothing. And I continue to work.
Ultimately, my doubt is,
You may say from experience now that - “Only thought creates seduction”. But is this words come from James who is choicelessly aware?. Had he really experienced himself that - “Only thought creates seduction & desires” as he is fully sensitive (or) he is parroting words of K?. Had he out of every desires - and only from comparing those he strongly says “Only thoughts responsible for seduction”. If not experienced, just open an implicit part in website - and see what happens within you - and compare it with thoughts - and please reply. I beg to do this.
Please, I am not insulting (or) trolling (or) degrading. You may be right. But this words come from choiceless awareness without any desires and really experienced while seeing those parts, and only by comparing this ‘seduction’ with ‘thoughts & desires’ he says?
Again, If I said something wrong, forgive me. But this is so important as this is the real/actual craving from stone age till now.
Seduction is different from lust as per K James. Lust is thinking about sex. But here it is not that. Immediate response of perception is Seduction here. No thought comes in seduction. But after seduced, thought comes and desires come for more. Just smelling (or) hearing (or) touching (or) seeing - immediate arousal happens in the sexual parts. This is Nature James. This is in all living beings which sexually reproduce. You may have felt it too. This is called seduction. There is no thought in those. Only after seduction - thought comes in and then craving comes in.
So, when this arousal in implicit parts happens - while perceiving opposite genders implicit parts, how to continue in that seduction without thoughts intervention - and look at it and end it, without controlling/suppresing/diverting?
Viswa - in a dialogue one has to keep things simple. You bring in so many topics and words: krishna, enlightenment, the scriptures, choiceless awareness, seduction, creation, etc. It is confusing.
When you see a woman or a man, a garden or a house, etc, your senses receive the impression, the contact, of that sensual object, and there is a sensation. That sensation gives rise to a feeling in the body: joy, pleasure, a sense of beauty or appreciation, or whatever. Sex and arousal are part of this sensation in the body.
But if you are healthy, balanced, alert, the sensation is awoken, it is felt in the body, and very soon it dies away.
There is nothing wrong about this. The word “seduction” is inapplicable here - you are using a word to judge what is taking place, and it is thought which responsible for this word. - It is what happens when thought intrudes which creates the problem of pleasure, desire, etc.
Though it is less than 5 minutes, I took time and read those James.
Now, this is the point.
Is this arousal wrong? - If it not wrong - then why we have to be alert?
What is this Healthy and Balanced? - Is it a kind of eating habits?. Does eating habits affect arousal on perception?. If it suppress the arousal - could you suggest me the food to eat - so I may be balanced too.
(or) Is it a Yoga practice (or) Kundalini like such?
Then,
Does it dies away (or) diverted by another attachment (or) controlled because of something wrong (or) suppressed by above practices?
If it is confusing, please leave those and you may reply for the above.
If not wrong - then why alert? Why not let flow? What are the consequences of those arousal?
Because of those consequences, it is controlled?
There is nothing wrong with sensation Viswa. You are making a problem out of it. Without sensation you would be dead.
You don’t have to be alert. But alertness is part of what it means to be alive, healthy, active. If you are inattentive then you inevitably miss things: you are unaware of your thoughts, your feelings, your surroundings. You become insensitive.
And when you are unaware, insensitive, inattentive, confusion occurs.