Not having ever studied “history” in uni, but having been forced to study that in high school and primary school, can’t say that I am an expert. One studied science, and from what one understands of science, " a science (such as physics, chemistry, or astronomy) whose laws are capable of accurate quantitative expression, history was never offered to be studied at uni within the category of science, and still isn’t. Apparently, it is still being rewritten… depending on the accuracy of available facts, and who does the interpretation of things past. What one does recall of history in one’s earliest years is how inaccurate the story was of all one was forced to study and remember as a teenager from what one now understands of Canadian history. The mistreatment of the indigenous people’s here, as well as the mistreatment of Franco-Canadians was never even mentioned when younger in high school. Systemic racism across the board, still existing here in Canada.
One very interesting historical fact was a course in sociology that touched on the fact that social workers were an invention of the British upper class in the 19th C. to check back on those workers who were protesting inhumane working conditions, and report back to the upper class. It does seem that history per se may indeed, or at least parts thereof, seem to be “written by the victors”…
Have a friend here who finished her degree majoring in Women’s Studies, where a more critical view of history involved seeing it through the lens of herstory.
For fun, one has Herodotus’ “The Histories” on one’s bucket list… lol, though not sure will ever get to it.
I did enjoy seeing the TV Series, Wolf Hall, about Thomas Cromwell in the times of Henry VIII, an adaptation of Hilary Mantel’s books (historical fiction)…
Yes thought was/is operational in all cultures but not given the prominence given in the current times leading to a set of values which are far from having a basis in reality. This perhaps is what K termed as the wrong turn of mankind. (Outward movement).
These all are of course my cursory thoughts on this issue and though I could add a lot more please excuse me if I don’t intend to go much deeper on this currently.
You have said that you do not intend to discuss this matter further, but I hope you won’t mind if I briefly respond to where you mention
I think this may be where we are approaching things slightly differently.
Apparently you date the “wrong turn” to some time between the composition of the Vedas and the flowering of the Indian Medieval period? (after which more analytical or ‘scientific’ thought slowly became predominant - the “current times” you mention being perhaps synonymous with the modern, post 17th/18th century period of history?). Would this be right? So by “outward movement” you really mean the movement beginning with the industrial revolution, the development of technology, modern political systems, economic systems, etc.
Whereas I would situate the “wrong turn” in the pre-historical period, before the complex development of cities and religions got started (so before the composition of the Vedas, before the existence of Mohenjo-daro); as something having to do with the development of the human brain, and the way that humans - from very early on - misunderstood the nature of thinking (i.e. early humans mistook their own projections of thought and imagination for reality).
Do you see the difference? (I’m not trying to get you to reply, but just showing you where we might be misunderstanding each other, in case this is useful for any future interaction).
When listening to the 1975 discussions and the 1980 (Ending of Time) discussions between K and Bohm I understood them to mean that the “wrong turn” took place long before the beginning of modern civilisation. In listening to their discussions it appeared to me that this “wrong turn” was not the problem of a particular historical era, but had to do with the way the brain of hominids evolved, and how our ancestors responded to this development.
You could be right here. I am perhaps mixing up some reference in a discussion between K and Pupul where “a permanent outer movement could be happening is discussed” with “the wrong turn”.
That was a long time ago. I will try and look it up again and maybe sometime later “what is willing” it could be discussed.
Thought which produces fear/pleasure has taken over the Brain. Unless one is free from fear/pleasure phenomenon which is thought there can’t be a lasting happiness . It is simple and yet it is a very complex phenomenon to understand.
By ‘real’ here I just mean real in the ordinary sense of the word - actual, factual, capable of being perceived by others, etc.
I’ve vaguely heard of the ‘bicameral mind’ (some people I knew at one time were reading about it), but what I was saying is more general than that.
One can see how young children can sometimes believe in their own fantasies, as though their fantasies were objectively real (actual). Similarly it is clear that pre-modern humans invested the inventions of their imaginations (gods, spirits, devas, etc) with objective reality - as though the Babylonian god Marduk was as real (actual) as the ziggurats built to commemorate him.
What was being suggested is that this conflation of the fantastical with the actual probably dates back to the very first hominids whose brains (especially the part called the neo-cortex) evolved more quickly than they were able to adapt to; and that this may be the origin of the ‘wrong turn’.
Wanting some state to last or to be different is to want something to be a certain way. That gives a motive, a direction to attain something in time. In the technical, practical realm this is necessary. There are stages to building a house say. But psychologically to bring in time to realize a goal dismisses, avoids the state one is in in favor of an imagined or remembered one in the ‘future ‘.
Isn’t the point to stay with the confusion the pettiness the violence rather than pasting a ‘happy face’ over it? Escaping one’s suffering by whatever means available?
There is no self ,there is thought in the form of greed,envy, hate and
so on. The self or the ego according to Froid is part of thought that negotiates.
