Just Thinking

I addressed the topic and your belief that meditation can be practiced.

I expected you to react to what I wrote, but I’m open to the possibility that there may be readers here who question all reactions, be it their own or other’s.

Again, Inquiry. I don’t think you were addressing the topic, you wanted to condemn something you don’t know about because you are entrenched in your own beliefs. As I said before, believe what you will, it’s your life.

It’s interesting that you’re accusing me of doing what you’re doing. It’s called “projecting”…attributing your own behavior onto another.

Krishnamurti made it clear that meditation cannot be practiced; that it is not a technique. Yet you choose to believe otherwise and, instead of acknowledging what you’re doing, you accuse me of having a belief. You’ve stated your belief and it’s on record. What belief are you accusing me of having?

Shohaku Okumura, zen monk, 2012 :

We shouldn’t seek after enlightenment. When we sit we must give up our aspirations to become buddhas. This is important, its a matter of attitude… whether we are caught in our desires, by our expectations and fixed ideas.
To become free from these things is our zazen.
To extinguish our views is to let go of thought.
We don’t usually see reality itself but only our preconceptions : things we like or dislike, find useful or useless. We divide reality into categories, running after somethings and away from others.
Letting go of thought is very precious.

One could easily mistake this for instruction on how to meditate, and practice it believing they’re meditating, emptying the content of their consciousness. But to sustain that belief, one would have to ignore and deny what they’re actually doing, and how it is just a modified version of what one always does.

Is it possible to not choose which thought you like or dislike, but to just be aware of it? If you think, Yes, I can choose to not choose, you choose not to see your mendacity.

I’m really very sorry, Inquiry, if you understood my words as an accusation. I thought it was clear that you chose to believe in your interpretation of what Krishnamurti expressed about his experiences of meditation and it must be so under any circumstances. I said you are free to choose to believe whatever you want to, it’s about your life. Krishnamurti is very important to me not the way it is to you, that I’m sure about. When I said you didn’t know what you were talking about I meant - following what I had said before - only the person who practices meditation can know what he or she is doing with it. I can believe or not believe in whatever I find suits me, not what I’m told to believe or not to believe. But I can add here that I’m not afraid to believe when I believe. I’m very honest, you know?

No one is telling you what to believe. The question is why do we believe anything? Is it necessary to believe, or do we choose to believe because choiceless awareness does not support the illusion of I, the chooser?

We all think we’re “very honest”. Donald Trump thinks he’s honest.

Inquiry, just to finish off this boring interchange of believing/ not believing, I’ll repeat I believe or will believe when I find it right to believe in whatever or whoever, that is to do with just me and if I want and when I want I’ll say I believe or don’t believe. Of course I said I am very honest because I think I am honest, that follows from being honest. If Donald Trump thinks he is honest I have no idea, unfortunately the world has to see what he has been doing and that is bad enough.

Evidence makes clear if someone is a mad policeman or a rabid dog. Belief isn’t needed, unfortunately.

@Jess ji

Are you saying the question of condemnation is moot if that lady/gentleman doesn’t have a clue about the thing they are condemning? Not having ‘done it’ then such condemnation is from a belief they hold and thus a dishonest condemnation? Aka a mad policeman/rabid dog/trump kind of thing?

Hello, Sam71. I see this post addressed to Jess, that is me, yes, but I don’t understand what you’re saying and I’m not interested in any explanation on your part. Maybe somebody else will be able to help you.

Aww. It’s amazing how one’'s comprehension fails doesn’t it.

I wasn’t giving any explanation but had asked couple of questions. The lack of interest is a pity though. Fear sure is strange.Thank you for your interest in telling me bout your lack of interest :rofl:.

What is the :question: is it possible to live without belief? …well is it? If I say Yes… It it is a belief, so irrational. And No is Capitulate, the conclusion stops the exploration short… And starts grasping

You find belief boring because you’ve never really given it any thought, and this is true of all believers.

To believe is to pretend to know what is true because you don’t really know and you can’t admit to your ignorance. If something is true and it is not self-evident of demonstrable, you choose to believe it is or is not true. That’s dishonesty. To beLIEve is to lie…to oneself and others.

To be fair - it may be possible to describe or define meditation somewhat in words - but of course the imposing habit of thought’s authority happens so seamlessy - faster than the eye can see like a well practised magician.

My experience always has the authority of truth. And we are so used to believing our eyes and thoughts. Therein lies the whole difficulty and subtlety of our self serving trap.

“He’s an idiot, what a bastard, I’m correct how dare he!” These thoughts feel like fundamental truths that we are of course ready to fight for tooth and nail.
So of course meditation is impossible - feels like a boring, misguided pipe dream.

If I think : “I am meditating” or “meditation is boring and misguided” and I react as if my thoughts are the representation of some fundamental truth (rather than conditioned beliefs arising in my consciousness) - then I am solidifying experience again, adding to the power of the known.

Awareness is of the experience that is happening, it is not subservience to the contents of that experience. Yes its tricky, maybe its impossible.

The brain is aware that it is inseparable from unfolding actuality, but it is conditioned to misconstrue what awareness reveals. How it sustains this corrupt condition is the secret of its “success”.

Yes - so maybe we should be asking :
1)do I accept that my subservience to experience is the sole basis for suffering? Be it my experience of suffering or the violence I inflict on the world and
2)do I care enough to make a difference?

nb. I think we should be careful to distinguish the brain’s “recognition”, “analysis”, or “conclusion” from “awareness”

Do I “accept its my subservience to experience”, or do I carefully study it, study my thinking? I think its very important the way we speak about this. If I just accept it, it means nothing to me. K wanted very much we not accept anything he said, as far as I can tell from the multiple pleas he makes to that end. Instead of accept rather to question, to examine, investigate this idea of my experience, can’t we say?

“do I care enough to make a difference?” Can I ask more about this? I think this is really what it comes down to. I thought even recently I was just one phrase, one metaphor, one tiny bit away from actually understanding and communicating with K. But I see that is another self-limiting thought, and if I really care I will go past that one too. But I’d put a lot into this thought apparatus that must be understood, going back to the care.

Yes - the problem of authority is a major part of what K talks about.
I did not mean to use the word “accept” in such a triggering way - I just meant “accept” as in “see the truth of”.

And although I am asking a simple yes no question : “Yes I do see it” or “No I don’t” (or I don’t know - which is the same). The question is also about the problem of authority. (I use the word “subservience”)

May I suggest we play a little game (I learnt from Bohm dialogue)? In order to get an idea of what we are talking about lets all repeat what we think the question means in our own words.

Does this sound good to you? If so, just repeat this question (or the gist of it) “Do I accept that my subservience to experience is the sole basis for suffering? using your own words. Or if you like, just say Okay to the game, and I will start by repeating differently.

I realise that there’s a lot of bullying and oneupmanship going on here - so I understand if you don’t want to play the game I’m suggesting - no worries - I will not be offended.

By “experience” do you mean the conditioned brain’s reaction to awareness; its denial, dismissal, or distortion of awareness?

I’m assuming that awareness is as choiceless, as autonomic as breathing and the pumping of the heart, and that the brain’s conditioning reacts to it by choosing how to distort, deny, or dismiss choiceless awareness.