Just Thinking

Is my problem that I can’t stop thinking, or that I am a way of thinking that can’t abide thoughts that I can’t stop undermining my way of thinking? If my problem is that intrusive, disturbing, upsetting thoughts arise and my way of thinking can’t always dismiss them or deny their validity, is my way of thinking worth defending because it’s mine? Or do I need to acknowledge that thinking is unstoppable until it is just thought; that thought is only as good as it speaks for this moment, if this moment needs to be spoken for?

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I’d like to discuss thinking but I am not sure what to make of your questions. Some people hate this question so please ignore me if thats you, but is there anyway you could ask it like I’m 5 years old?

Which one of my three questions do you want me to revise for a five year old?

What they all refer to is that thought doesn’t stop or even slow down until the brain awakens to what a mindless, destructive mechanism thought is when abused by self-ignorance.

If you like, can we take one at a time? What is your interest with thinking?

I take it English is not your first language, so forgive me for not understanding this question.

@inthe_pine maybe I can start, points for 5 year olds. Number 1 :

Hopefully this simple fact is obvious - but is it really me thinking? Obviously not.
The thoughts just pop up automatically and incessantly, unbidden and sometimes unwanted.

Wouldn’t most people say it is me thinking? My thought may be automatic, unconscious, seemingly without end but i won’t let go that its not me doing it so easily.

I’m thinking too where do these thoughts pop out from?

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Yes, but there are two kinds of thoughts: those that “pop up” and those that are deliberate attempts to think something through, to exercise reason. This rational deliberation is attributed to me, the thinker.

Intentional thinking is taken seriously, but the thoughts that just pop up seem to serve no purpose other than to prevent silence, emptiness.

Yes, but is it though?
This is the popular belief, the feeling we have. But what indicates that I am the thinker of the thoughts?
The only indication we actually have is a correlation of locality. Both the feeling of "me"ness and the thoughts seem to be somehow arising from my body - thats not enough to convict - nothing indicates that one is causing the other - it could very well be that both are being caused by something else.

If I really was the thinker of the thought wouldn’t there at least be something to indicate that was the case? For example, some control, volition or forethought? But I don’t decide or know what the next thought will be, and sometimes I even wish that some thoughts would stop arising.

Everything indicates that I am not the thinker of the thoughts - agreed? (if not please explain/demonstrate)

There is a 3rd category : thoughts that we wish would go away - that we deliberately try to suppress. (but these are all just categories that point to our relationship to the thoughts - whether we like them or not - discriminating between them for the sake of communication may be useful - as followers of K we discriminate between practical and detrimental/useless/psycho thought - but there is no fundamental difference between them - merely differences of content)

Here is how it works (as far as I can tell) : thoughts arise quasi continuously. Some thoughts provoke a stronger emotional reaction than others. The more emotionally charged thoughts are assigned a greater importance. Thoughts of greater importance become real things in our consciousness. The important things focalise the following thoughts that arise (ie. most of the thoughts are now trying to deal with the problem)

Thought sometimes creates important things and then automatically tends to deal with what it has created.

This is of course cherry picking (a fallacy) - The thoughts I like are me/mine :rofl:

PS. Rationality is a highly useful tool/skill for the purposes of avoiding nonsense. (but it does not come naturally to us - it is learnt)

As I said, deliberate thinking is chosen by the chooser, I.

The thoughts I like are me/mine

Do I like them because I choose them or because all thought is random with the exception of those thoughts I like, approve of, identify with?

The conditioned brain is capable of thinking rationally, factually, for practical matters, so why assume or speculate that the brain isn’t doing the thinking - be it irrational or not?

I assume we are still agreeing that I am not the thinker - just that I am happy when my thoughts are dealing with some problem that I feel needs to be dealt with - a situation which you call “choosing”.

I don’t think anyone is assuming that - in fact we do usually say that the brain is producing both the thoughts and the sense of self.

I actually thought someone might propose that I am the brain - but I don’t think thats helpful, or correct (its my brain, my body - I am not my body, nor my brain)

Your assumption is our mistake. Agreeing as a group that I is not the thinker, is agreeing to hold this “truth” as we play the game of serious inquiry. We’ve started on the wrong foot.

The game is : accept what can be demonstrated, accept the evidence, or provide reasons to the contrary.

Either I am not the thinker of the thought (which is what everything seems to indicate, so far in this thread) or there is something that indicates the contrary.

Are you not the thinker because everyone here shares that belief? Or are you clearly nothing but a brain on a run-away train of thought?

Until (if ever) it becomes clear, we can at least use the obvious facts that present themselves.

I mean it may be clear in some moment of insight - but that has passed, or may never be, so lets just deal with the simple facts (if we can)

If one takes game playing seriously enough, they will play certain games with reverence, and pride themselves for their humility and honor. One is respected (by oneself and others) for playing by the rules.

But when someone bends the rules to expose the game for what it is, and nobody sees it for what it is, it’s game-over for that player.

Sometimes pigeons can shit all over the board - they should not be venerated as great gurus. (even though someone might have a great kensho at that moment)

Tell it to Donald Trump. I’m just being honest about what’s going on here, and you’re getting all self-righteous.

Self righteous according to your interpretation - I thought you were getting all mysterious from here, so I responded as best I could.

Your best doesn’t serve you well, and I don’t think it will until you see what a low bar you live by.