It’s impossible to think about not thinking
Because thinking is all we know
So we can’t help but wonder what life is
Without the constant movement of thought
We know that without thought
This moment is Everything
That there is no actual past or future
No I, me, mine
Now is all there is, and the brain knows this
But what matters more than what the brain knows
is that it can’t stop the movement of thought
Without losing the will to continue
If we can’t stop the movement of thought, why not just move with it? Thought about stopping thought only causes conflict. Why not listen to it in a new way…without any judgement whatsoever?
There is an ‘art’ to following its surprising twists and turns. It drops away and gets picked up again.
Yes, of course, resistance is futile and a waste of energy.
Thought about stopping thought only causes conflict. Why not listen to it in a new way…without any judgement whatsoever?
We’re conditioned to judge, so all one can do is be as aware of every thought and judgement as we are aware of everything else. That’s a lot of awareness, but it’s less innervating and energy wasting than trying to change what we’re aware of.
Since our problem is our illusions, what we believe is true or possible, the solution to our problem is complete attention, being entirely here now, and that can’t happen until/unless the brain is ready to do it.
That’s what thought says presenting the problem as if the solution is in the future. The brain ‘will’ never be ready to ‘do it’…so listen to that and do it and listen to what comes after that and after that……
And when the ‘listening’ has stopped, pick it up again.
Alex Calder said something about art that has stuck with me and may be apropos to this: he said don’t wait for Inspiration to come, work and it will come.
This sounds like advice coming from a brain free of its conditioning, but I’m not sure what the advice is. Care to elaborate?
No way free of anything. The conditioning is there and as you say fighting it is futile. So see if you can listen to the thinking / conditioning as it arises. Maybe you can or maybe not. See if you can ‘attend’ to the thoughts as they appear- or any word you want to use. This is a private matter. We can talk about it but the thoughts need to be ‘heard’ while we’re talking. The conclusions too. All of it. I don’t want to give the impression that I can do it…it either happens in the moment or it doesn’t.
There does have to be a ‘remembering’ to do it, to listen or watch…whatever.
Could either of you please explain to me why Krishnamurti is asking a conditioned audience to use their thinking to look at ‘what is’, in this talk?
K: Observation, silence, and love. Is that what you want to talk about? … Before we talk about these things, could we possibly be able to think together?
It doesn’t mean that you accept or reject or put forward your particular opinion and hold on to it, or point of view or a conclusion that you think is right, unyielding – could we, in spite of all that, think together?
It doesn’t mean that we all agree, but have the capacity and the willingness to think together. Not about something, either personal or objective, but see the implications and perhaps the necessity of thinking together. Thinking. Could we go into that? Would that be of interest to you?
The attitude of there being something wonderful that I am trying and failing to gain is useless. See that, and let it go.
Simply : every instance is an opportunity for awareness - what happens in that moment of awareness?
Whatever happens in that moment, let it go - each following moment is also an opportunity to see and allow oneself to be free.
When we read these ideas and concepts that we are sharing here, do thoughts arise? In these thoughts, are we together? Or are we struggling with what we see?
No sir, I asked why Krishnamurti asks a conditioned audience to use their thinking to understand and observe ‘what is’, if according to the interlocutors of this thread so far, they are convinced that thought, being totally conditioned, can never see ‘what is’. That’s all.
What work are Krishnamurti aficionados doing?
The “just do it sir!” work?
Like follow every thought, don’t miss a one etc.
‘What is’, is your conditioned thought, isn’t it?
No, it is just seeing how conditioned thought works/functions through that thinking together.
Alright but without a judgement of how it is “functioning”?
To observe only means “to look at”. Why, if I am a serious person interested in understanding why I suffer, should I judge what I see in that thinking together?
You have stated with certainty that the brain will never be ready to free itself of its conditioning, and you support this assertion by quoting Alexander Calder who said, “Don’t wait for inspiration, just do the work”.
But if the brain has pulled the wool over its own eyes so effectively that it can’t see what it is actually doing, why doesn’t the brain end its mischief by being silent and still? Is the human brain incorrigible?
Okay, the thread so far seemed to be about the futility of trying to stop thinking - but your question still stands.
Is your question the same as : what is the purpose of discussing and thinking about thought together?
(nb. maybe I should mention that I have read your question, and realise that you have couched it in terms of : I think K is saying one thing and I think others are saying the opposite)
The brain is conditioned to do what it does and to do what it does in the way it has been conditioned to do it. It cannot act outside of its conditioning. But maybe the conditioning can be ‘seen’ by some ‘part’ or some ‘thing’ that is not conditioned. Otherwise there is no possibility for it to be free…the work of following one’s thought without judgement is “arduous “ (some would say unnatural) but I see it , difficult as it is, as revealing the attachment that seemingly exists between thought and the self as ‘thinker’.
Is the brain inherently driven to explore itself?