I feel like this must be a very common experience and I wondered if you all had any insight. I had the good fortune of speaking to a sympathetic, sincere person who was interested in K recently. As they slowly went into some things that were coming out, I have since noticed there was a tendency for me to go so far and stop. To observe for a moment or two, and then intellectualize only past that point. After this my thought eagerly jumped ahead at each moment it saw an opening, to the “big picture” while wrecking my part of enquiry. The brain went down its conditioned route to repeat conclusions that might be drawn, rather than allowing anything to potentially unfold naturally. So, the activity of thought and not enquiry leading only to being stuck. I have some ideas why
fear of leaving known
we have dissipated energy to such a great extent. It is necessary to clean house entirely to have sufficient energy to enquire.
inertia energy of thought
So I believe I have some things to watch in the activity of thought.
The sincere person I was speaking too must have seen all this, and kindly pointed out that thought may be operating and that in enquiry we are interested in observing, not intellectualizing. We went into some of the reasons people do that, the natural tendency of it. By trying to skip past things into intellectualizing, I’m not really interested in the topic at hand, I’m interested in getting something out of it and moving on. Whats behind all that?
I’m glad I went into it because I feel like I learned some things about thought. I feel the next time I go into enquiry I will watch this tendency to jump ahead. I am also very interested in observation or thought taking place. I feel I can’t know I am observing but I feel I can know if I’m in thought.
I was struck by what you say below, maybe if we look at it, we might get an insight into what you are going through?
Are you saying : I remember having experience x : I recognised myself watching my brain (the 2 entities that seem to be involved) - I feel that my brain which feels separate from me the observer, does something, and I imagine that it could potentially do something else (possibly something better?) - this ended unsatisfactorily for me, I have theories.
Is this accurate? does it ring any bells? To me it seems like our usual human behaviour/experience.
Are you saying : Now that this is known, it will be the basis of my future inquiries.
In time the known will lead me to the promised land? (of freedom from the known)
Sorry, maybe I’m jumping the gun here, and there’s a lot more to be explored first, but have you considered meditation? Here on kinfonet we sometimes call it “choiceless awareness” with the understanding that it cannot be done (willingly)
I’d done plenty of that, but in this case there seems to be learning about the nature of thought. I’ve seen that thought is eager to jump ahead, focused on arrival, takes me away from observation. I see thought is doing a lot of this automatically and without my intention so I want to learn more about it.
Oups. Sorry you feel that way - I’ll shut up for a while.
PS- actually on second thoughts, I’d just like to add that my question to you was about whether you had considered the impossible. (and if thats what you saw, it understandably does come across as pretentious)
PPS- shame though that we always get caught up in this pride/comparison stuff (or maybe pride is an opportunity to encounter our selves fully in dialogue? - direct perception being of course awareness in the moment, not post hoc recognition and judgement)
No problem. You weren’t really talking down but its something I look out for. All across the internet people have been keen to give advice about whats needed to “fix” me. I wonder what gives us the idea we know whats best for others?
What do you mean considered the impossible?
Our pride coming up is interesting! There is probably a reason for it.
I am interested in learning about thought. I understand the problems of accumulation and knowledge (we will never have enough, forever limited). However, in learning about myself and how I am approaching the world, in observing that isn’t there things to be learned about thought. If not how would you approach?
Which is very normal human behaviour once again - my whole function (as the central most important character in my experience) is to protect and improve my status.
And of course we shall see what we know, the brain projects what it mosts expects (which it constantly refines via feedback).
I may actually be feeling (superior/inferior) and acting like a human being over here, but that is not what you (or any other reader) is reacting to - it cannot be, your sense perceptions cannot traverse the internet to where I was - we can only react to the images projected by our own brain.
Instinctive behaviour once again (fixing the world). And we are under the (probably correct) assumption that humans share the same brain (ie. the human brain).
In fact, isn’t that what we are also trying to do to ourselves (fix, improve)?
That is my function, as the processes that constitute the “me”.
Are we in agreement on this simple fact ? (ie. what i feel and do is conditioned)
The way of progress towards the imaginary good of the future (via anaysis, and accumulation of the “correct” conclusions) is one thing (that has absolutely nothing to do with freedom from the known).
Another completely different thing, is meditation. K says its essential.
But what is meditation? no one seems to know.
PS - disclosure : when “dialogue” is mentioned, I get all excited, due to ideas around “bohm dialogue” (which is one reason I like paraphrasing what someone has said as a method of inquiry) and “our reactions in relationship as a reflection of who we are”.
Sorry Wim, I don’t think we have enough information to go on here - maybe you can expand a little?
If I was forced to conclude either way, I’d go with No. Not saying the person was not acting from Love and Awareness - just that Behaviour confirms nothing (because it could be due to many things)
If I was to say something mysterious myself in response, I’d go with : At best behaviour, experience and awareness mutually arise within each other - at worst we are perpetually caught up in experience and behaviour.
Whatever information I produce is never enough for a conclusion.
It was more of a question I asked myself that did not need an answer.
I suppose it has something to do with meditation
Being at my qui vive in a potentially aggressive situation at a funeral, I realised afterwards that no thought had entered to influence the situation for better or worse. In fact, no thought at all towards those few people who had been so aggressive towards us in the past.
So, no recognising of my behaviour took place, something new took place at that moment which only afterwards was a surprice to me.
You recognized that you were at your “qui vive” and “in a potentially aggressive situation”, so can you honestly say “no reognising of my behavior took place”?
You behaved more mindfully, more cautiously than usual and experienced more gratifying results than usual. If I was your therapist I’d congratulate you for making progress, getting better, etc., but is this self-knowledge or just self-improvement?
There is much the self-centered brain can do to make its illusory self more tolerable, less miserable, and one could argue that it’s the first step in self-improvement, but it isn’t the first and last step.
There is optimizing your prison cell for comfort, pleasure, and enjoyment. And there is seeing (realizing) the true nature of the prison and the self’s role in creating and maintaining it.
Thought is an addiction. Like any addiction it is unaware. If we see thought is an addiction, it is a big step. Phone addiction is also thought addiction. Discussion forum addiction is also thought addiction. K tried to negate this addiction in dialogue. I feel probably some of the audience members through listening broke that addiction for a few minutes but went back to thought addiction after the dialogue ended.
Thought is not an addiction because unlike addiction to a substance or an activity (e.g., gambling), it’s not possible for I, the thinker, to quit thinking because that would be the end of the illusion of I, the person I think I am.
So long as I need to be who I think I am, I can’t quit thinking.