Genisis

Kinfonet Discussion
1

Once upon a time, all living beings on Earth were innocent because they were all choicelessly aware and perceived directly. They were all naturally bound by what actually is at every moment. They lived with nature as it is by adapting to it and learning from it, and evolved accordingly.

As more complex forms of life came into existence, brains developed, and the brain developed a process of using symbols, sounds, and signs to represent known objects, entities, actions, feelings, etc. This system of communication made it possible for the animal to talk to itself and more elaborately with others of its species, and not be limited to communing with nature.

In The Bible, this natural development is portrayed as a fall from grace, from perfection, to a debased condition of guilt for choosing thought over choiceless communion with nature, with what actually is from moment to moment.

So what does one do when their sense of guilt is burdensome enough that they need to be relieved of it once and for all? We all make mistakes and mistakes have consequences, but should we feel bad about making mistakes, or is it more reasonable to feel negligent for not learning from our mistakes…especially our innocent mistakes?

Our species made an innocent mistake when we chose to override choiceless awareness with our exciting thoughts about the future. And what followed was hatred, greed, slaughter, war, crime, and at the root of it all, the worship of belief.

Why hasn’t the human brain been able to acknowledge its innocent mistake, learn from it, thereby correcting itself? Presently, our species has sentenced itself to life in the prison of guilt, thanks to our adherence to the religion of Belief. Why can’t we see this mistake for what it is?

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To be precise, in the bible suffering is the knowledge of right and wrong - a knowledge which is necessarily accompanied by a sense of self (in order for right and wrong to have meaning)

In other words : The purpose of the self (the feeling/idea of being the central character in existence) is to suffer. ie. give weight to the movement away from what is

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If there’s no knowledge of good or evil, there could be no judgement; what is, is what is, period. But with the judgement that ‘this should be and this should not’, we became separate from all the rest of Nature. Like gods passing judgement on our environment? And each other.
And of course ourselves!

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Is this the purpose of the self or one of its likely consequences?

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In The Bible, suffering is the result of disobeying God by eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. Choosing to disobey God was not an innocent mistake, therefore, humans from then on had no choice but to feel guilty about being human.

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We don’t choose to suffer - we suffer because we choose, and we don’t know how to stop

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Did you you see why we say it is its purpose? Are you proposing another model?

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I am looking at suffering as arising from identifying as a self. The idea of suffering being the purpose of self doesn’t compute for me. Illuminate?

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Perhaps the self image came about gradually when someone found themself apart from the group, the tribe. They had to survive by themselves whereas before survival was done as part of the group…the tribe was one’s identity. Forced by circumstance to go it alone, we found out we could survive by ourself. The tribe identity gave way to the individual one.

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Why does the self entertain speculations about what may or may not have happened thousands of years ago?

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Well if the ‘speculation’ is that somewhere in our past there occurred a ‘wrong turn’, why does it hurt to speculate further why this event happened…if it did?

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Will such speculation (of which we have no idea whether it happened or not) solve our usual daily conflicts with ‘what is’ and ‘what is not’, or on the contrary will it increase them since while we are entertained with speculations we do not look at ‘what is’ or ‘what is not’?

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Why can’t you? What is stopping you from observing while speculating? Or have you made a judgement’ about speculation …because it’s “entertaining”? When I speculate , that is ‘what is’ …no?

So if you have judged that speculation is ‘useless’ (which would be your speculation :star_struck:) then that is for you to observe?….or not. No?

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Easy, because while we speculate, which is imagining ‘what could be’, we are far from observing ‘what is’.

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Easy, ‘what is’ is that we are imagining what could be. No?

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Yes. Now, while we speculate, are we looking at ‘what is’, which would imply that speculation would stop immediately, or do we continue without realising that it is all mere imagination, reacting to anyone who dares to tell us that what we are doing is nothing more than building castles in the air with our imagination?

18

K said “seeing oneself without judgement is the highest form of intelligence”…that may or may not be true but it makes sense. I don’t think that he is saying some judgement is okay when it comes to seeing yourself and some is not… your ‘judgement’ as I’m hearing it is that you can’t see yourself if you’re speculating, right? You put speculating out of bounds. But where awareness and intelligence are concerned, how can anything be out of bounds, unseeable? Seeing oneself without judgement means the self (with its judgements) is not ‘doing’ the seeing. It is the object of the seeing? And whatever I’m doing is ‘grist for the mill’.

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No. Let’s say I am speculating (with myself or with someone else), but because I am attentive and serious, I see that all I am doing is trying to make real something that is only in my imagination, since I don’t really know anything about it. At that point the speculation automatically stops! Not because I judge speculating to be right or wrong, but because I have seen how absurd it is to speculate, that it is ‘what is’.

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But “absurd” is a judgement. Right wrong is judgement. Good bad is judgement. All science is built on speculation! Technology, medicine, astronomy etc.
There is resistance to seeing ourselves as we are. Because we don’t want to see that there is no one in control. It is our conditioned belief that we exist and that we are ‘getting somewhere’….but there’s no where to get to!
Freedom as the man said, is at the beginning.

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This is one of the main problems for many people who read or listen to K… We are using language to communicate, and we use that tool to express something to others, don’t we? Now, how would you express, ‘I’ve seen the absurdity of it’ without someone coming up to you and saying ‘but look, you’re making a judgement!’?

Absolutely, but unfortunately we never let that beginning begin, because we prefer to waste our time speculating about what that beginning will be like, what kind of freedom we will get, and so on and so forth… until suddenly we realize that we are in the graveyard.

What happens to us, when we innocently go to listen to someone who we think will help us to understand all our problems to free us from them, and suddenly he gives us a tremendous challenge saying, ‘Don’t ask how, just do it sir!’, Dan?