Death

Kinfonet Discussion
22

When I am remembering some incident, it means I am elsewhere than right here and now. I am in my thoughts, or feelings.

The purpose in the above case of remembering a pleasant experience in Sweden, is just remembering it, re-living it, experiencing it again in memory.

I see nothing wrong with harmless little remembrances like this. If one is always living in the past and it is interfering with what is happening now, that is a different story.

But I would like to read in context what K actually said, to better understand and see if it makes sense to me, if I am understanding it correctly.

23

Eternity,

hmmm… Can psychological thought “know” or even enter into the field of eternity, the “now”, considering how such thought has been generated by knowledge (memory, experiences, etc.)? In other words, can psychological thought do anything except imagine psychological time?

24

K: How does one deny? Does one deny the known, not in great dramatic incidents but in little incidents? Do I deny when I am shaving and I remember the lovely time I had in Switzerland? Does one deny the remembrance of a pleasant time? Does one grow aware of it, and deny it? That is not dramatic, it is not spectacular, nobody knows about it. Still this constant denial of little things, the little wipings, the little rubbings off, not just one great big wiping away, is essential. It is essential to deny thought as remembrance, pleasant or unpleasant, every minute of the day as it arises. One is doing it not for any motive , not in order to enter into the extraordinary state of the unknown. You live in Rishi Valley and think of Bombay or Rome. This creates a conflict, makes the mind dull, a divided thing. Can you see this and wipe it away? Can you keep on wiping away not because you want to enter into the unknown? You can never know what the unknown is because the moment you recognize it as the unknown you are back in the known. The process of recognition is a process of the continued known. As I do not know what the unknown is I can only do this one thing, keep on wiping thought away as it arises.

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25

Thank you Dan for sharing the excerpt, it is appreciated. It helps to put things in better context, perspective.

I get what K is saying here and it is his approach, to wipe away thought as it arises.

26

“K: The mind that has put its house in order, has understood the nature of knowledge. Such a mind is completely silent. And that silence has no cause. You see, “silence” can be illusory; it can be put together by a thought that is determined to be silent. You have the silence between the two whistles of a train, the silence between two notes, between two noises, between two sounds, between two thoughts—but that kind of silence is still within the realm of cognition. But when the mind is completely silent, it is not even aware that it is silent. If it were, it would merely be playing tricks. The mind that has put its house in order is silent. That silence has no cause and, therefore, has no end. Only that which has a cause can end. That silence—which has no ending—is absolutely necessary, because it is only in that silence that there is no movement of thought. It is only in that silence that that which is sacred, that which is nameless, and that which is not measurable by thought, is. And that which is, is the most sacred. That is meditation.”
K: A Timeless Spring: Krishnamurti at Rajghat, 1955-1985, Death, Meditation, and Silence, 29 November 1981

As long as the monkey is active, it continues to play tricks with itself.

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27

The river here tonight is so perfectly still after the rains. Just one gull making its rounds. An osprey has appeared and is circling looking for the desired fish. The small birds have either bedded down or will appear at the feeders before long. The health of the trees and the plants can be felt. Not a human soul to be seen or heard.

Not bedded down at all, the small birds are here. A chickadee and a red cardinal. The cardinal is molting and has lost its head feathers and looks a bit like a mini-vulture.

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28

Very beautiful description of nature by where you live I guess. It is reminiscient of Ks descriptions of nature that he saw. Also you are lucky that there were no human beings around you, to disturb this beautiful atmosphere and solitude.

29

There is one …and her ‘disturbances’ are welcome.

30

Nice, that brought a smile to my face and a laugh. It is good to have companionship, a Mrs to enjoy the beauty with.

31

And you tell me there is no Krishnamurti teaching .!!! (U in general).

32

@DavidS so you were probably right in wanting to hear what K said, seeing as he has answered so succinctly
When the past, as conscious memory, arises, we are telling ourselves a story. It is the continuation of conditioning, psychological conditioning. Science tells us that our memories are changed and perfected (as the “I” sees it) - what we think is true, changes slightly, despite getting further and further away from what actually transpired.

33

Is that how you see the point of the “wiping” or his point that the arising of the past memories divides and dulls the mind? I am ‘here’ but thinking of ‘there ‘

34

The stuff on what studies have shown about our changing memory, is interesting if we consider that this process of retelling and “embellishing” is somehow useful (from an unconscious evolutionary perspective) for the “I”.

Thought is thus a form of “karma”, meaning a strengthening of the conditioned self.

The point of wiping away, or letting go, comes from an understanding that the self reifying self is dangerous if left to its own devices.

35

“Dangerous” in the sense that thought images are fear? But why “wipe” pleasant images as well? Is he saying that if it’s not necessary to bring the past into this moment, that it should be “denied”? That is how I read it. And if this is so, is it ‘Intelligence that does the discerning and the denying?

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36

The self is knowledge of good & bad - you can’t have one without the other - what I want necessarily implies what I don’t want.

Maybe, but no magical intelligence necessary : what is the use of my previous holiday in switzerland, if I’m actually preoccupied with getting a clean shave? It is usually very apparent if the thought in progress is related to/useful for the situation at hand.

37

Yes. I am eating and thoughts of business arise. The food, the tasting, the activity of eating disappear…the brain by attending to the thoughts and the process of , the sensation of the body eating is “dulled”. No big thing but yes a very big thing!

38

The only big thing for the self is the search for security - what kind of life we lead, made of fear, where we miss the wonderful banquet at hand, worrying about our next meal.

This I suppose is why we sometimes sit quietly with no goal, so that we know that whatever comes up is besides the point.

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39

Or re-living memories of a past one. Is it our dullness that makes us neglect the moment? Not stimulating enough? No there there? (Not enough ‘here’ here?) Is this , our dullness, one of the reasons for the explosion of entertainment? And now ‘total dive’ immersive VR is on the horizon. :scream:

40

So re: Death, this “wiping” or letting go of what is not essential in the moment is a ‘dying’ to the past. A dying to the known. And that is ‘living’.

41

Here is a piece of a transcript from a video titled “Dying to everything each minute” that might be useful:

Look, sir, actually, when you’re living, as you’re living now, with vigour, with energy, with all the travail of life, as now, can you live now, meeting death now?

You understand my question? You understand my question? Please, do you understand my question?

Which is, I’m living. I’m living with my vigour, energy, capacity, though pain and all the rest of it – I’m living, and death means an ending to that living. Right?

Now, can I bring the ending into my living? Have you understood what I am talking about?

That is, to live with death all the time. You understand what I am talking about?

That is, I’m attached to you, end that attachment. Which is death, isn’t it? I wonder if you see this.

I’m greedy, and when you die, you can’t carry greed with you. So, end the greed. Not in a week’s time, or ten day’s time – end it, now.

So you’re living a life full of vigour, energy, capacity, observation, see the beauty of the world, beauty of the earth, and also the ending of that, instantly, which is death.

So, to live before is to live with death. You understand something? Have you captured something?

Which means that you are living in a timeless world. You understand?

You are living a life of constant – everything that you acquire, you are ending, so that there is always a tremendous movement, not a certain place you’re fixed. I wonder if you see all this. Can you do all this? Will you do all this, or will you just listen and say, ‘Well, this is another idea, another concept.’
This is not a concept.

When you invite death, which means the ending of everything that you hold, dying to it, each day, each minute, then you will find – not ‘you’ will – there is. Then there is no ‘you’ finding it, because you are gone. Then there is that state of a timeless dimension in which the movement as we know as time, is not. I wonder if you understand all this.

We will continue with this, tomorrow, because this is the depth of meditation. You understand?
It means the emptying of the content of your consciousness, so that there is no time.
Time comes to an end, which is death. You understand?
Not ten years later or fifty years later, but now.

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