A relationship with thought

Kinfonet Discussion
21

He didn’t. He kept inquiring, exploring about what inner space is. Here is a quote from The Awakening of Intelligence , a discussion with Jacob Needleman in 1971

Krishnamurti: Space, we are talking about that for the moment, we can use that word. First I must see very clearly the space between two thoughts.

Needleman: The interval.

Krishnamurti: This interval between two thoughts. Interval means space. And what takes place in this interval?

Needleman: Well, I confess I don’t know because my thoughts overlap all the time. I know there are intervals, there are moments when this interval appears, and I see it, and there is freedom there for a moment.

Krishnamurti: Let’s go into this a bit, shall we? There is space between two thoughts. And there is space which the centre creates round itself, which is the space of isolation.

Needleman: All right, yes. That is a cold word.

Krishnamurti: It is cutting itself off. I consider myself important, with my ambition, with my frustrations, with my anger, with my sexuality, my growth, my meditation, my reaching Nirvana.

Needleman: Yes, that is isolation.

Krishnamurti: It is isolation. My relation with you is the image of that isolation, which is that space. Then having created that space there is space outside the barbed wire. Now is there a space of a totally different dimension? That is the question.

Needleman: Yes, that embraces the question.

Krishnamurti: How shall we find out if the space round me, round the centre, exists? And how can I find out the other? I can speculate about the other, I can invent any space I like - but that is too abstract, too silly!

Needleman: Yes.

Krishnamurti: So is it possible to be free of the centre, so that the centre doesn’t create space round itself build a wall round itself, isolation, a prison - and call that space? Can that centre cease to be? Otherwise I can’t go beyond it; the mind cannot go beyond that limitation.

THE AWAKENING OF INTELLIGENCE PART I CHAPTER 2 2ND CONVERSATION WITH JACOB NEEDLEMAN MALIBU CALIFORNIA 26TH MARCH 1971 ‘ON INNER SPACE; ON TRADITION AND DEPENDENCE’

22

I don’t understand. I don’t need more ideas. It is essentially something to observe of yourself. Attentively look, watch, listen, observe thought in the mind. What is it doing? Is it a continuous blurb? Am I completely subjected to thought? When I am walking quietly, sitting quietly, and there is a sense of natural integration with the world, isn’t this the absence of thought? When thought returns, isn’t it memory?

23

Exactly Peter. Everyone can learn from/for himself.

24

Thanks for that excerpt.

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25

This is an excerpt of one of the discussions between Dr A Anderson and Krishnamurti, under the theme ‘A Different Way of Living’:
A: (…) what we have been saying is that there is some dysfunction in thought and in knowledge which relates to its own nature, the nature of thought and the nature of knowledge, which could very well give the impression that thought is a disease or that knowledge is a disease, rather than giving the impression as I have understood from you that thought and knowledge have their proper uses.
K: Of course.
A: Their nature are not corrupt as such.
K: Obviously not.
A: Exactly.
K: It is the USAGE of it. Quite.

26

When I am walking in the countryside, in the hills, I can be feeling a bit tired. I might be worrying about my ability, to get where I am going, and making a bit of a fuss about what I am experiencing in this activity. A lot of things start to be a bother. Then we make more effort, and struggle to walk, getting upset, and annoyed. An experienced walker knows not to focus on all this, but to carefully, sensitively, watch the whole body and mind moving forward, adapting to the conditions, and enjoying the whole experience, not focusing on things. In the extreme, the long distance runner talks about a mental barrier, “the wall”.

27

There is an investigative quality to thought. We have invented tools and have discovered there are microbes, molecules, atoms, etc. Doesn’t this investigative quality persist now, in the brain, relentlessly? It is stuck in this investigative operation and we try to keep up with it. The brain is constantly analyzing and thinking there are results to find. Can I watch and see there is this mental operation, even as I read now? Not look for meaning and answers, but carefully digest the whole passage of writing, that may or may not say something about the whole, not making it argumentative, or verbally controversial?

28

Why can’t we learn? Just look at the postings. There is a bit of hostility, isn’t there, to be picky about someones words, and then by reply, in ones own way of speaking, assert the same points in ones favour. The implication, is he/she is wrong, and they don’t really understand it all, and I have a better understanding. It is a habit of competition, and a defiant self reliance. I have a way of dealing with words and ideas, by cleverly using more words and ideas. The point of the communication is completely lost. It is as if we think learning has nothing to offer except to manipulate and accumulate knowledge. The freshness of learning has gone.

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29

The “freshness of learning” is the refreshing effect it has on what you’ve learned and retained. If that freshness “has gone”, you’re not learning, and you’re not wondering why.

30

No, I think that is the completely wrong learning. Accumulated knowledge and its use and development is an educated learning, but not learning. When the mind is not reacting, not acting as a self center, then there is a space, and it is all open to discovery. I am not thinking about the other, not focusing on things, and there is an undirected, effortless, wonderment.

31

Amazing, that people read something, which is making a point about not getting the point, and then completely side step the point, and repeat not-getting-the point! It can’t be claimed the point is not clear, because the response is its own reproduction. What is this failure to see ones own responsibility? Is it simply the tailgating driver, who is so intent on their own progress, that they can’t see ahead to drive carefully behind the driver in front without pushing? At some point they will be able to pass safely. They don’t have to keep driving aggressively, as if they are being held back.

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32

That may be true, but it is not actual for those who believe their brain is doing it. It’s called “wishful thinking”.

34

Isn’t this called regression? Why even bring it up? Believing what I am doing is actually what I am doing, believing, right? Don’t complicate it. It obviously doesn’t need more words, more description, more emphasis, more analysis. Just get the point!

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35

Say I am sitting at home, feeling bored, and weary of games, TV, internet, and all that. There is a feeling of loneliness, and sadness. Let’s say that’s what it is usually called. We worry about this and look for an escape. Then perhaps I reflect on what I might have read, that this is not actually all that stuff we might go through thinking, I am lonely, and what can I do. It is in fact a separateness from the world, brought about by my own false way of thinking, even adding all kinds of intellectual and psycho babble about my disposition.
That is, whatever it is I am experiencing, it is not to be assumed I know what it is, nor to accept the standard assumptions, nor a conventional dialogue. On reflection, this loneliness I think I am suffering, may be something of an unusual sensation, a confused state of affairs. When I am not distracted and no longer struggling to be comfortable I can feel it for what it is, whatever it is, directly, not as mental reaction. It is at one level, disturbing, and there is a tendency to want to escape, to return to some distraction, to what we know, and so we are not learning.

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