My response to the above bears a strong relation to one of the many reasons that I left today’s dialogue other than too many folks being ignored in the name of cultivating awareness. And why? From my view here, it is because what is to be regarded as “just another idea” is arbitrary and decided on a whim. For example, I can likewise disregard your above dismissal as also “just another idea” as well. Where does that leave us? Well, it leaves us with another “K game” of “who is it that is projecting past knowledge on to whom?” How embarrassing! A dialogue based on a child’s rejoinder from being challenged by the bigger kids. Imagine if someone walked in on me involved in today’s dialogue and folks are responding to challenging each other with “I’m rubber and you’re glue, what bounces off me, sticks to you”?
I find it very ironic to be involved in any group that ostensibly purports itself to be committed to doubting the efficacy of pure reason and then conducts the dialogue via a literal rendering of Krishnamurti into metaphysics. Then they do their arithmetic. If you’re speaking, then your not listening. And if you’re reacting, then it isn’t true, so on and so forth. The dialogue isn’t furthering itself; its arrested into principles that prevent flow.
To experience something means to go right through to the end of it, not stopping half way or after just a few steps in because it feels uncomfortable. When we react to pain, the reaction is not the experience of pain; it is a movement to pleasure. Our reactions are the denial of experience. Can I be 100% bored, go to the very end of boredom? Then boredom will never be the same again. But while I just react to it, move away, it remains a perpetual problem.
That’s because for you ideas are very important. So you even see me as an expression of my ideas. But I have no ideas. I am lost. Je suis perdu pour les mots. I am lost for words. You are not. So it leaves us apart.
We carried on last night for a total of three hours. And at the end there was tremendous sense of fun because we all sensed the absurdity of what we are so seriously trying to do. After you left there were more explosions, more reactions, more expressions of frustration, and then after the storm had passed it became very quiet and we were free of it.
That smacks of judgement. Who or what decides when another’s ideas and judgments are observations and vice versa?
Oh, trust me. I’ve been in that dialogue many, many times. And yes, I’ve experienced the dull satisfaction of the collective “duh,” just before we all retire into town for some over-priced vegetarian food. Everyone feels slightly more closer together finding each other mutually shipwrecked on Krishnamurti island. Been there, done that. Not impressed.
What is an idea? Let’s get this clear first. Otherwise we shall be talking at cross purposes. To me an idea is anything other than direct perception. The Greek root of the word ‘idea’ is ‘to see’ - but when ideas fill the space left over from perception, are we still seeing? Or, away from the perception, an image or a pattern is formed and that is what remains of the perception. So we call on the idea and don’t bother to look anew. Then we are bound to our own inner authority; and to back this up we draw on what others have said.
Paul, thought/past is there. We know. But it is limited. Whatever is limited is not permanent. Every temporary things - born and dies or changes it forms.
So the past/thoughts/ego/I/self, which is limited/temporary, must have been born from something and so what if those are born from ‘the other’?
And so I ask “If everything is born from ‘the other’ (as the first temporary thing can be born only from a permanent thing) - then we - ‘Paul,Viswa,etc…’ are just his play and it’s all his wish.”
@PhilipB
Exactly. If we decide/conclude it as an ‘idea’ - then we are forming an image of it - and so fail to observe ‘what it is’.
Even in case of religions,scriptures,etc… - we are deciding those as an ‘idea/beliefs’ and so fail to observe/listen/read it.
Thought is not temporary. An emotion is temporary; a crisis is temporary; but thought as memory keeps them permanent. There is no ‘other’ apart from thought. Look at what thought is doing: it is always trying to find an answer outside of itself for its own mischief and confusion. This movement is what gives it permanence.
Paul - if thought is not temporary - it means it is permanent. And if it is permanent - there will be No ending of thought.
Whatever ends - has a beginning too. And whatever begins at first - can be transformed from another temporary or from permanent. If we go to the root through this way - it is obvious that - first temporary/limited can originate only from permanent. First atom can originate only from invisibility/him/unimaginable.
We may play with words - by taking here and there from knowledge/thoughts - and time pass for a while. But ‘truth’ is there always - and if we are serious - it will open it’s gates.
So, Just surrender to him who is far from everything and from whom words/thoughts/‘I’/Paul/Viswa/atoms - begins and ends or born and die.
Again, these are just my observations - I may be right/wrong - but inquire this deeply.
And even if you don’t inquire and oppose this - it’s fine. It’s too his play
Whatever you,me,we,they,he,she and it does - is everything his wish (good/evil/war/peace). Everyone/everything is just a puppet created by ‘him’. Just enjoy the play by being amazed of/devoted to him.
So, the ignorant ‘other’ (who says ‘I’ do) then sees that - it is ‘the other’ does everything - which is ‘me’ and there is no ‘the other’ - as ‘the other’ is ‘me’. But if one thinks or opens the mouth and say ‘me’ - then the ‘me’ is not actually ‘the other’. So whenever ‘thought/I’ arises - just turn it/surrender it to ‘the other’ (as we don’t have anything to surrender other than ‘I’/ignorance) and devoted to it. He will show you everything - which the ignorant ‘other’ failed to see and then there will be no ‘other/I/you/we/they/he/she/it’.
Yes. If you allow yourself to feel whatever it is that you’re feeling, without thinking about it, without letting thought egg it on, the pure emotion will on its own fade away within a few minutes. Perhaps it’s similar with an experience, which is a complex of thoughts, feelings, and emotions.
To return to the original question: What is it that sees (senses, perceives)? The top candidates:
The brain
Awareness
The witness
There is no seer/seen, only seeing
Unknown and perhaps unknowable
These are of course all products of thought. As is the question itself. What happens if we ask from the heart rather than the intellect? Or what if we don’t ask the question with the goal of finding an answer, but just look at the process of seeing?
Poetically speaking - as it is Easter - I should like to say that it is the Primavera looking out from all our eyes, whether we are furry, feathered, or human. We are nature “looking out” and enjoying or suffering, blossoming or buzzing, singing or weeping.
No, you are missing the point. Thought is seeking security through permanence. When there is insight into the futility of this search, thought can come to an end.
Say, thought ends in this search, if there is an insight that thought is seeking security and there is no security.
But, how we know - ‘this is insight’ or ‘there is no security at all’ or ‘thought will end in that insight’ or ‘whether thought has ended’ ?
No one knows ‘this is this’ or ‘that is that’. So, we may be caught in an illusion or we may be deluded that ‘thought will/can/had end/ended’.
We can’t know Paul.
But one thing is for sure that, whatever I said about surrender to him is not seeking security to run away from thought/pleasure/sufferings.
What I actually mean is - surrender to him so that - he will show us the truth as he is compassionate towards all whatever we are and he is the one that does everything because we don’t know anything(like what this ‘I’/thought/self/ego/past/present/future/time/atom/molecule/pleasure/pain/sufferings/desire/beauty/joy/bliss/emotion/energy/air/water/land/fire/everything).
We may name whatever we see/feel as ‘this/that’ but actually we don’t know anything and this is the only fact and this is the only thing we know.
Our ego may refuse to accept this. But this is the actuality. We don’t know what it is,why it is,how it is. We are a Stone Age man and don’t know anything but to remember everything we started to name it as ‘fear,emotion,I,etc…’
Please don’t reply this but inquire this deeply.
He is the one acts and in ignorance ‘we think we are’.
Just enjoy the play. And as said in many religions - we have to stop acting/deluding and surrender our ignorant ‘self’ to him
What is it that you are allowing? It means a disturbing feeling enters your consciousness and you do nothing at all about it. That feeling may not just fade away; it may invade the whole of your consciousness. Will you allow this to happen? Even as an idea.
- I should like to say that it is the Primavera looking out from all our eyes, whether we are furry, feathered, or human. We are nature “looking out” and enjoying or suffering, blossoming or buzzing, singing or weeping.
