So many msgs in this thread! What did we learn about what it means to learn?
(Warning: trick(y) question!)
What weâve learned, we live, whether we think about it or not. What we think weâve learned, we talk about and take pride in.
Shucks, you didnât fall for the trick!
Seen as (subtle) accumulation, what we learned we now are. Seen sans accumulation, âwhat we learnedâ doesnât make much sense.
As a learner, Iâm a (subtle(ish)) accumulator. I observe, remember, and form views ⌠but itâs all a bit soft, like a palimpsest thatâs easy to erase and write over.
Hi, inquiry
What are the possible indications for such states of mind? Is there a chance of fooling oneself?
Or possibly seen in comparison to past accumulation? (ie. what I have already accumulated as true) - isnât âmaking senseâ all about comparison? ie. whatever only makes sense (or doesnât make sense) when compared to something else eg.my beliefs?
How to tell the difference between non accumulation and deepening of conditoning?
also
Is my view of myself, (inevitably) by myself, reliable? ie. Is there the slightest chance that I have an objective self image?
Scrupulous self examination? Make your mirror as perfectly reflective as you can, and then have yourself a good long unfliching look.
To some degree, sure, why not? The brain is good at meta tasks, looking at the looker kind of thing. Is it possible to have a 100% objective self image? I doubt it. You?
What will it reflect? What actually is this mirror - how does it work - can you describe it a bit?
Please take your time (examine your initial gut response, and see whether it stands up to further scrutiny)
Awareness/attention turned inwards?
Paying attention to your self, watching it do its thing reveals (a bit of) whatâs really going on and what makes it tick.
Maybe its knowledge turned inwards? How can we tell the difference? (one giveaway is that something knows about inward and outward, and is choosing to turn/focus on stuff)
Knowledge is looking for something it (thinks it) knows about: insight, an explanation, sense of how things work, an essence or formula. Attention/awareness just looks, it has no agenda beyond seeing whatâs there.
Weâre fooling ourselves constantly.
1 Like
Yes, but can it know that âwhatâs thereâ is not what it thinks is there? Everthing recognized or identified is just reinforcing beliefs and biases. If Iâm not seeing everything anew, Iâm seeing what (for me) has always been âtrueâ.
1 Like
In my understanding, neither awareness nor attention âknowâ anything, they just see.
So thought doesnât have to articulate what is seen for intelligence to act? Does intelligence act before thought can respond? Or does intelligence use thought so as to act appropriately?
If the action of intelligence involves thought, itâs not enough to âjust seeâ because, although a camera can see clearly, it canât âknowâ what it sees without having discernment.
Could it be that when intelligence is awakened, thought is never a problem because it is used by intelligence rather than by its ideas and beliefs about how to act intelligently? Can thought imagine having no identity, no agency, no executive power, being nothing more than a mechanical function of intelligence?
Doubtful. I donât know. Krishnamurti talks about action that emerges from awareness. What do you think?
Of course action âemerges from awarenessâ, but if action isnât determined by discernment, it canât be intelligent.
Directly from awareness, without thought as middle man.
Can awareness discern the meaning and significance of what it beholds, or can it only behold? If Iâm aware of something âwithout thought as middle manâ, Iâm aware without a clue as to what Iâm aware of because nothing comes to mind.
Meaning and significance necessarily imply subjectivity. Things and events (which may necessarily also imply a knower - and all that the knower knows being merely what the knower knows) are only meaningful and significant to me.
It is only the knower of what he knows that knows if what he knows is, or is not, significant
And yet Krishnamurti spoke of the action of total choiceless awareness.