You pose the question Patricia. I simply ask where it comes from. I do not pose the question.
Of course there can be. Thought is very apt to create every kind of rule for every occasion.
Technical thought involves designing and executing, among other practical intentions, and this means that results are the object, making hope of accomplishment necessary.
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Good point. Where the self is active, all practical thought is, as you say, infused with it. Until the illusion of self is seen for what it is, its influence persists, and practical thought is not immune from that influence.
I am doing it! By now, I am sure there is no doubt that we know that the self is an illusion and the only real needs are those of the body. All my days are filled only with thoughts that have to do with tending to the body - feeding it, cleaning it, clothing it, exercising it, making sure it has enough sleep, etc… There are only two things I use thought to do that are questionable because they have nothing to do with the welfare of the body: 1. Coming here for discussion, and 2 watching movies.
Thinking - including daydreaming - is a volitional act. How can you not be aware of what you are doing? I don’t believe in the subconscious. What I cannot perceive does not exist.
What do you mean by “when the self is active”? There is only the act of thinking. There is no thinker (the one who does the thinking). When the leaf shrivels in the fall, is there a shriveler?
Psychological thought.
Yes exactly Inquiry - the results are the object.
Objective thinking. Technical thinking where the self is not involved at all. Where the psychological (self) does not intervene. It requires attention and energy to be aware of thought in its place.
Sneaky move to delete your post Paul! The logic of the encounter is now no longer here.
I did not delete any post Patricia. I made a technical mistake with a post and duplicated it by mistake, then tried to delete the first post but could not find how to do it. That is why I asked how to delete a post. Had I been able to delete the post I would not have asked how to delete it. And I think it is ill-advised to call another poster “sneaky.”
So long as the outcome of an action is uncertain then hope is part and parcel of the action. This is quite different from what I am calling ‘magical hope’ where hope IS the action or hope substitutes for the action. When hope substitutes for action, to any degree, you have tricked yourself.
Then you have my apology Paul.
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Why the apology? Was Paul psychologically hurt?
Cannot know about Paul’s psychological state Sree. No doubt he is responsible for that.
I made a wrong assumption about Paul and apologised, as a human being solely responsible for my actions.
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Paul scolded you and you apologized. I observed this interaction and am enquiring into it. You were ribbing Paul and he snapped at you. In response, you offered an apology. Why? Did you (psychologically) hurt Paul’s feelings? You denied knowing Paul’s “psychological state” and that is an admission on your part of a situation you want no part of.
There is much to learn here if we look at it, observe it in depth and END IT! (as Krishnamurti had said ad nauseum.)
There is psychological thought and practical or technical thought. Technical thought is required to do all of the mechanical things one has to do every day to live. Driving a car, brushing teeth, preparing meals, grocery shopping and on and on. It has no hope for future results. It’s just practical thinking.
The thought you are talking about ; designing and executing a plan, is not what K was talking about when he spoke of technical, practical thought. Rather what you are talking about is psychological thought; planning for the future, abstract thought. Thought that involves movement. Movement is time. We move from here to the future. We hope for improvement in the future. That is the illusion that K repeatedly warned us about. There is no future change psychologically. We will be the same people in the future that we are now because we are our conditioning; our experiences and the knowledge that we have accumulated.
Hope is an escape from what is. Hope involves the belief that things will be better in the future, that there will be change psychologically if we just work hard enough. This is an illusion. Individuals have tried to change, governments, nations have tried to change. But until we understand our conditioning nothing will change. Making plans and hoping for change is an illusion.
Why not take the time to read what K has to say about this instead of postulating ideas and beliefs?
I suppose you can plan something, build something, let’s say, and hope it turns out right. That is not the hope K was talking about. When we try to change ourselves, psychologically, and we practice certain exercises or beliefs, like joining an organized religion and hope that we will become “better” people. That is an illusion. We will not change. Hope of change in this instance is a movement in time. We are this now and we will become something else later if we make the effort to change. There will be no change until we understand our conditioning. Our conditioning as an American, Englishman, Italian, a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc.
A Jack Pine, a Dan McD…yes? We are totally conditioned. Our thoughts are conditioned, our conclusions are conditioned…we don’t ‘know’ and yet we act as if we do…that is ‘conditioning’, isn’t it?
When you go about doing “the mechanical things one has to do every day to live”, do you not hope to succeed at each one of those things?
In every practical, technical endeavor, there is the hope that you will accomplish it, since there is always the possibility that you won’t be able to. Any endeavor, regardless of how mundane, requires hope for the intended result.
The hope of becoming, however, is vain and foolish because it isn’t realistic, practical. It’s aspirational. There’s necessary hope and there’s vain hope.
No, I don’t. And I doubt if you do either. You’re stuck on this hope thing and you’re like a puppy with a bone. You’re just not going to let it go. Fine, that’s your problem not mine. Maybe someday you’ll be interested in what K pointed out about hope and other things instead of trying to prove you’re right.
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