Dear Ayham,
I understand. What I meant is, if I realise a mistake it already happened whatever I did. I cannot correct that anymore. I can only deal with the consequences of what I did and they are happening now. But to really address the I have to change in order not to make the same mistake. Is this more clear?
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I am not taking a position here. It is a fact that I cannot be aware if you take a position or not. I will never know. And the same counts for you. I can say " yes I do not take any position" but that could just be a deception. You will never know what it is. The question you are now posing is a different one. But is it really important whether we are aware of each position as it arises? Do we understand and percieve position in general? That seems far more important as we can do it only now and therefore have to be attentive for what is happening now.
It is indeed clearer now.
How I see it though, that the moment you bring the word ‘consequences’ I am already acting from the past. The mistake that happened keeps on happening, now, in a variety of forms and contexts today as a reaction to the past or my understanding of the past.
Consequences, in this context where we are now 'together, is dangerous to give weight to.
The position we have is that there are separate people. See this mindfully, for the fact. Trying to reconcile this intellectually, to make it something to consider, is a mistake. See that the separation is unapproachable. The separateness is the nature of our thinking. All we are doing is talking together.
With consequence I mean that something has an effect on something else. Like if the weather is warm I do not have to wear warm clothes. If I do a mistake then it has a consequence and that is happening now. That is the only thing I can deal with. In dealing with it I might found out what I did wrong and stop that.
Dear Peter, that is what I am saying. Can we realize that all we do here in this forum is thinking and talking together. Really percieve it.
I question this. Otherwise, what is the point of thinking together? The whole point is we are experimenting to see if it is possible to abolish all of the doubt, suspicion and sense of separation that exists between us. Our experiment won’t work if we constantly start from a position or conclusion.
Dear Paul, I will never know if you really think with me. Not on this forum. If we meet that would be different because then I can sense you completely. But on this forum I can take only your written word and as the word is not the think, I will never know if you are without a postion or not. The same counts for you in relation to me. It is a fact that here we only have the written word and nothing else. And is it not so that this forum is full of conclusions? By the way experimenting does not mean we are really thinking together.
We gather here, as we are in a position or conclusion, and couldn’t watch it.
If we are out of every position and conclusions, and can watch what happens, then what is there in having a dialogue?
If there is no positions, then from where the questions can arise?
Doesn’t the question itself originate as a thought?
No, I am not talking of thinking with another. We do that kind of thing all the time. It’s quite commonplace when we share the same prejudices or beliefs. We are experimenting to see what happens when we put a question to which neither of us has an answer. Then, as we observe what happens, we are sharing in the watching of what arises, sharing in the looking at and the listening to it.
That is precisely what we are going to find out. Let’s not conclude anything in advance of the finding out. Let’s explore this together. Then the questions we discover and face may be coming directly from life itself, not from our distorted intellectual versions of reality. For example, you call yourself Truth. Don’t you even question why you do this? Or you are so satisfied with the reasons why you do it that no question can ever penetrate.
Dear Paul, can you drop the position that we have to put a question? Maybe that is just a habit and leads to nothing. Start with the fact that there is a question. That is what is happening. Why is this question? Out of what did it spring? Wishes, thinking, pleasure of discussing with people or simply percieving etc? Not because we want to have an answer but simply to understand. That is what I went into right from the start. That is where we can begin and will find out if there are just conclusions, positions or if there is a real exploration of ourselves and life in general. I am sharing that with you right from the start.
But we have to breathe, for God’s sake. And a question is the vital breath of any human communication.
For God’s sake Paul, I am not saying that we should not question. Are you really reading what we write here? I am asking if you might make out of questioning a pattern? We question if we ask, where does our question come from. We breathe then as you like to say in our communication.
Thoughts are floating and surrounding a position/ expectation/ desire/ meaning/ etc. When attention is paid to the pattern and the recurring themes of thought. Shouldn’t one ask: What is the position that is being held?
This the first entry of the thread, I believe each has enough content of his/ her own messages and input to check his/ her own position.
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I couldn’t find a name instantly and so I used the name ‘truth’.
Are you okay with the name ‘false’?
Edit -
If you are not okay with this name ‘False’, please suggest me one.
Sure.
So, where shall we start?
Don’t you have a family name?
We have no way of knowing until we explore the question.
But you do not want to explore that. You said that it is not important for you to explore where a question comes from. So are we exchanging here anything else than words and thinking?
Dear Ayham,
I went into your question about mistakes again. Is it not like this: I might accuse you and that leads to a reaction in you. You might be hurt. My accusation happened. I can never undo it as well as your reaction. But I can percieve now your reaction, do not judge it and try to understand it. Thereby I might discover it was my fault. I can learn about it and change. But action out of it might be an apology to you. But that does not make my original mistake undone nor does it change your feeling if you do not want to listen to me or look at the whole situation. Inspite of my apology you still might be hurt.
Usually we do not look at a mistake that way don’t we? We try to make the mistake undone and out of that apology. But in that we have not understood and will do the mistake again.
Best wishes, Erik
No, I said that our listening to the question will reveal to us its origin. But we have to listen to the whole thing and be willing to take the risk that we are putting a wrong question. So let’s do it.