You’ll have to get me a hearing aid then for Christmas 
Better still, since I am yourself, you’ll have to get yourself one, or learn how to communicate with yourself better.
Surely we all need to improve our cummunication abilities, but no communication is possible when one eludes the main point. If I talk about French revolution and you answer talking about the weat production in France that is not communication. 
Dominic,
let me add some few things regarding our conversation. We all may have wrong assumptions or attitudes, me first. So I think that a forum like this can be a chance to challenge those assumptions. But as far as I have seen with the few people I had the chance to talk, this chance is not appreciated or tackled. The moment one challenges what the other has said and/or disagree with it, the other person either answer without tackling one’s arguments or even taking it as a personal offence. This is not a good or useful way to conduct a discussion. When I disagree with someone, I bring some arguments to explain why I don’t agree. If I don’t do it, this may mean that I don’t have arguments to oppose or that I refuse to discuss the matter. In both cases the communication is interrupted. In past occurrences I had to interrupt the communication because I realized that, giving the attitude of the person, no communication was possible. In your case I had the choice of behaving in the same way, that is: not answering you (which by the way can be interpreted as impolite) or trying to explain to you my point of view. I chose the second hoping you were mature enough to meet the challenge.
Hello Voyager
The above text is so well expressed I thought I should express my appreciation . Well it’s true as long as one remains in intellectual arena, one can never understand the beauty and essence of K teaching. It’s certainly not meant for academic debates and endless discussions
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We can go back to “thought is the very denial of love” and see that it can be said, thought is denial. This statement requires some serious understanding of seeing, watching, listening, sensing, free from thought. Like looking at the flower. Why this straightforward fact is so controversial and debatable, I don’t know. Just the other day in the park, I met a neighbour and their dog. We were talking, and the dog was sniffing around and munching on the grass. Every now and then the dog had a look of delight on its face as it met with something in the grass. It was not just a facial expression, the dog was for a moment completely moving in beauty and happiness.
As far as I know, nobody here found controversial this fact. Regarding its being debated, well, isn’t it the aim of this forum? Why Thomas started this thread if not to debate it? To post soliloquys?
Yes Peter,
we can describe the formation of a bubble, the components one needs the dexterity the air needed but will that help us to see the joy of a child blowing bubbles and the impossibility to catch it or to to pierce through. it disappears in nothing.
People deny, and that is their controversy and debate.
You, as it is being put, as in, you this, you that, you, you, you… is myself, the self. When this awareness is not, communication is confined to the technical only. This may not be the answer you want here, but it is the answer yourself is giving you. Only I can see what myself is telling me, and when I am aware it is myself telling me it, I will listen and respond from there. Myself has told me things and I have listened and responded to myself, that is all. If Voyager has issues with Dominic, Voyager needs to summon a different Dominic, but that may prove difficult. Dominic has no need to summon a different Voyager. Voyager is self in the raw plain and simple.
This is solipsism, a serious pathology. You should consider consulting a psychiatrist.
What help is there for the human condition when everything thought has invented is part of it? When reality ends, psychiatrist ends with it, just as anything else. Humankind suffers and tears itself apart, yet cannot face things as they are, and so goes on.
Anyone can see the self is a highly disturbed thing beneath the mask which has come about because of the isolation it is, and there is no Dominic, or Voyager or anyone else for that matter outside of thought, so identifying with and clinging to experiences, losing oneself in creations of psyche won’t make any of this go away, nor will trying to bend everything to fit my only little reality, which I insist on for security and comfort. Krishnamurti did intimate that this was all psychologically arduous and spent a lifetime trying to get the self to go into all of this.
I observe how the self hangs around Krishnamurti, like a moth to the flame, toying with it, and having it as a source of comfort, while being careful not to get too close, but keep the thing on its own terms, and under control, which is just another of its illusions.
Then love it! Love your illusions, your self, your prison, love every aspect of your life, enjoy it, live with passion every day. …and your life will not be in vain!
Ah! the muffled cage, to drown out the sound of its bars being rattled. Psyche can luxuriate in the glories of itself all it likes, but that will not end its violence.
Ah! The trap is perfect! No way to get out… every suggestion is refuted, negated, excluded. That clearly means you don’t want to, and when one does not want it, nothing can be done. You have a destructive attitude Dominic, you are killing yourself, that’s want you aim at. And you want to spread the poison of your insane ideas even here, to us! Do drown yourself in the swamp of your blindness if that’s what you want.
One last question Dominic, why you are here? You said nothing can help you or help us, so why posting your ideas?
Self says it will look at itself, provided it has the promise of a way out, which is to say, it will not look at itself, which is where the fear it is comes in. The language being used is very violent: drown yourself, step out in front of a bus or whatever, see a psychiatrist etc, which is all fear talking. Do you consider Krishnamurti insane? and do you consider yourself sane, which is to say whole? When the brain is strongly tethered to a particular worldview for its security it inevitably finds anything outside its ken troubling. Why does the brain operate a consensus reality? Are you even aware it is doing that? or do you need your reality to be the one, true reality, which is authority, just like any other. How many times did Krishnamurti effectively exhort us all to look at fear, to hold it like a jewel, and let us tell us its story? Dominic is as well adjusted a human being as any of you here. He is not a monster with two heads, and if he can look closely at all of this, then so can you. Indeed it is your responsibility to do so.
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You didn’t answer to my question: why you are here? Yours is a meaningful silence.
I’ll tell you why you are here…
Let’s make a step back:
- While talking to Thomas about perceptions I stated:
“This reminds me of a discussion here (the observer is NOT the observed) which was started by Dominic where he had an extreme position about the possibility of being in touch with the other or with anything. He denied this possibility, but that happens only with alienated people.”
Was I not allowed to comment your ideas?
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You resented my doing so and answered: “That’s a bold statement, but are you going to tell me what I think, or ask me?”
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I quoted your exact sentence and asked you for clarification:
“That is what I have understood about your long and complex discourse. If I am wrong you should be able to explain better (and in a simple way) what you really meant in the following sentence: …”
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You never answered to this request of mine and that means my interpretation was correct.
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Instead you started a surreal, obstinate and fake conversation trying desperately and unsuccessfully to invalidate every statement of mine.
If you cannot accept another quoting your ideas it means you are not taking the responsibility of what you say and don’t have the courage to support them. A forum is meant to debate ideas, but both your resenting and your clear attitude in answering show that you took this forum like a contest where your ego could be gratified in beating other people arguments. This is really destroying both the purpose of this forum and the kind of spirituality you claim to have understood.
Understanding the arising of the thought / images of fear and not fleeing, substituting, rationalizing, condemning them does not mean ‘indulging’ in them. Perhaps thought does this ‘fearing’, because it can. It is an asset to survival to see and plan for the ‘dangers’ ahead. So it has its place. Where it goes wrong is when it issues from the misperception that one is separate from the rest of creation: the fear of ‘not-being’. Also when it issues from the misunderstanding of time; that there is psychologically anything other but Now, the eternal Now. I think this is part of our responsibility; to end ‘fear’.
This seems to be what a lot of people are doing. With pills, with dope, with hash, with drink, with ‘uppers’, with Ecstasy, with sex, with religious, philosophical beliefs, meditation excercises…yet the brutality, violence, killing, pollution, goes on. Some may find a corner where all that is ignored and it doesn’t touch them. But for some, the concern is not for themselves only, but for the future of the species and those around us who are affected by our actions. I’m saying, that ‘dying’ to all this fear behind all this is our challenge. Dying to the self-image that feels itself apart and divided from the world. K. interestingly said that somewhere in Time we are already physically dead, gone…so why not do it now while there’s still the energy and the vigor to do it? To my understanding that is what his “the house is burning” and “the urgency of change” is addressing.
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Dan,
I didn’t mean that for sure, that’s too naive, isn’t it?
K. said, and it’s one basic of its teachings, that if you have to understand something or someone, you have to love it. Loving it means you observe it with care, without any resistence and so with intelligence.